Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
I'm sorry...but to argue that Linux has better usability than OSX is crazy to me.
And vice versa. How do you find OSX to even be competitive? Have you used both extensively as your sole machine to compare?
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller So you're saying you don't want the ability to remotely help your grandparents when they can't figure something out? You would rather try and walk them through the terminal commands?
Why is THAT your alternative? You are jumping to emotional reactions instead of asking how something would be done.
Why would someone need terminal commands? Is that what you would do on Mac? Don't carry your complications from Windows or Mac onto Linux. Of course it seemed hard if you believe it has all of the problems you've had in the past. Try to see past the hard to support world of Mac or Windows, your bias from their problems makes you assume that Linux has them too. It has some, sure, but not the ones you are imagining.
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@scottalanmiller I have a Mac mini running Mac OS, an Ubuntu desktop I use for running ddrescue for data recovery, and my Windows laptop right next to me. I use them all. For the completely computer illiterate my favorite OS is hands down OSX right now.
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You assume because I don't want unattended ScreenConnect that I can't assist. But I can, shared desktop assistance is built in. But I've never needed it. System is so easy. But it's totally reasonable to need that from time to time, it's just not common, in my experience. You just don't have the support needs that Windows and Mac do. Which is why they are popular, they cost more to support and the support is more visible. So everyone pushes them because they generate so many more support calls.
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I should add - I've recommended Chrome OS to lots of people who can live entirely in Google's cloud.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I have a Mac mini running Mac OS, an Ubuntu desktop I use for running ddrescue for data recovery, and my Windows laptop right next to me. I use them all. For the completely computer illiterate my favorite OS is hands down OSX right now.
So none exclusively? You've never taken a year and switched to each to really experience being forced to work only from one?
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
I should add - I've recommended Chrome OS to lots of people who can live entirely in Google's cloud.
Why do you tie it to Google's cloud? I don't use that, other than for logging in. I have no need for it on my Chromebook.
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I didn't mean that to sound like you should NOT use Google's cloud options, just meant that using a Chromebook does not imply anything like that.
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One thing I would have to ask is... why do you keep comparing to Ubuntu? Look at easy to use Linux rather than Ubuntu. Ubuntu, I've said this a lot, is so bad that I truly believe that it was created to make a harder than necessary to use Linux desktop and surround it with marketing that told people that it was easy to use so that people could say "but Linux is hard." In 17.04 it's pretty easy, they've fixed a lot of things and it has some nice features and the driver support is phenomenal and 18.04 when Unity completely goes away should be a huge step further into the right direction.
But for real end user friendliness, distros like Mint, Korora, Gecko, Solus, Zorin and Elementary are really build for that. Six solid choices, depending on the target audience and what support you want to provide. All of them are gorgeous, all of them give a "Windows 7"-like feel that is totally native for people coming from older Windows, but far cleaner and easier. Except Elementary which gives you a Mac feel.
All have powerful package management that makes getting and maintaining software so easy that nothing on Windows or Mac can compete.
All offer transparent remote shared desktop management built in, no additional components needed.
All of them can be managed remotely without interrupting the end users, both graphical (don't do that) and through the command line. All can be trivially managed via state machines as well.
All of them are nearly totally protected from malware (nothing is perfect and this will change over time). None of them need or have use for third party anti-virus. All will patch not only themselves but all of their included software. All have ways for third party non-included software to be patched automatically as well, optionally.
These systems truly make the end user experience easier, not just from a "I know where the buttons are" kind of way, although they do do that. But also from a "I don't have to worry about so many things, I don't have to know as much, I don't have to be an expert, I don't need to call someone to fix things and I don't have to acquire extra tools to make it work" way.
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One of the really great things with, say, Mint is just how much is included. My dad (obviously retired) is moving from Windows to Linux (probably Korora because we all use it) with his next laptop purchase. Things like not needing to look for, acquire, install or update an office suite is perfect for him. That one is included and totally maintained by the system gives him more than he could ever need.
He gets simplified printing and scanning, for free.
He wants to do video editing and instead of constantly researching, buying, installing and updating a third party system he'll have a built in one that is more powerful and self maintaining. Lowering cost and easing management.
We will manage the system for him, I'm sure. So things like installing software will be even simpler since we need only maintain a list of what software should be there. State machines for software lists are so easy on most Linux systems. You can do them on Windows but you have to build out all this complexity to make it work.
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@scottalanmiller I couldn't work exclusively from Linux for a year. Too many applications I use don't run on it and I don't want to screw around with Wine. I just want to work - efficiently.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller I couldn't work exclusively from Linux for a year. Too many applications I use don't run on it and I don't want to screw around with Wine. I just want to work - efficiently.
That's exactly why I switched to Linux. So much more efficient. What makes you have OS dependent tooling? IT tends to be pretty free of that. Or have really simple work arounds. Since WIndows administration is effectively totally transparent from Linux today, there is almost nothing left where OS tooling has any value.
But basically where you are is that you have OS specific apps chosen that have pre-determined your platform of choice - but you are then carrying this on to other decisions and impressions. Linux isn't hard, it's hard because you've designed your ecosystem around not being able to use it (intentionally or not.) That's a totally different thing. Its not that a Tesla isn't nicer than your Chevy, you just already bought the fuel for your Chevy.
I can switch to any OS and since I've been about 15+ years free of any OS specific tooling I can tell you, the different between Windows and Mac OSX is small, but to Mint or Korora, it's large. And if you keep testing with Ubuntu, you're avoiding seeing how good it gets.
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What's funny is that much of this conversation arose from how confusing Windows is and how difficult it is to support.
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A lot of my users have iPhones. On Windows & OSX they at least have the option to use iTunes (bleh) to backup/transfer/restore their devices. Some people don't want to pay for apples cloud storage. Tell me how I can accomplish this task on Linux without virtualization?
Are you saying that people that run Premeire/photoshop/illustrator/etc are just "limiting" themselves? Windows and OSX can run them fine. What about QuickBooks?
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@scottalanmiller Since I'm a one man show I'm guessing I handle a bigger variety of tasks than you do working for someone else. I handle graphic design/marketing/accounting/etc. All of these types of Apps - guess what - don't run on Linux.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
Are you saying that people that run Premeire/photoshop/illustrator/etc are just "limiting" themselves? Windows and OSX can run them fine. What about QuickBooks?
No, I think you'll find that I called them power users for whom our discussion of grandparents did not apply. Or that our discussion of IT use did not apply. You keep moving the target. Now, in MANY cases, yes, those are applications specifically chosen when people do no research and just spend money haphazardly. Those are specifically examples of the software we find when people do foolhardy things. Do they have a place, yes. Commonly? 50/50 maybe.
Quickbooks obviously isn't included here and is not for power users or power businesses.
None of these apps apply to IT workers or home users. These are expensive power user apps (except QB) that require users being treated as power users.
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@frodooftheshire said in Lenovo T470s vs X1 Carbon:
@scottalanmiller Since I'm a one man show I'm guessing I handle a bigger variety of tasks than you do working for someone else. I handle graphic design/marketing/accounting/etc. All of these types of Apps - guess what - don't run on Linux.
I have all of those on my Linux
What made you choose expensive, OS specific versions? Did you audition alternatives? I do support a graphical media and advertising firm that has no such limitations. -
@scottalanmiller LOL we've entered crazy town.
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@scottalanmiller You have Premiere Pro CC on Linux? What about Illustrator? Photoshop? That's what everyone uses...at least professionally. I haven't met a single professional running open source software to do video editing. Never.
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@scottalanmiller What open source accounting software do you run? Will it tie in with my PSA solution like QuickBooks does?
