Posts made by guyinpv

@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

If a customer found out after the fact that you could get paid by the vendor of one of your recommendations to them, do you think they would be OK with that?

Probably not. It assumes no mention of favorites, partnerships or affiliates was ever discussed. It also assumes that businesses, like other in this thread, simply assume if money is involved, there can be ONLY corruption at the highest level and it would be impossible for the consultant to make wise choices, being utterly controlled and clouded by greed.

I guess we can't help how the client perceives the consultant if they know he may receive commissions. Our overwhelming lack of faith in human ethics wins over our assumption that the consultant will still make objective choices.

At the end of the day, as others have said, the consultant typically leaves 2 or 3 possible options on the table, with pros and cons of each. If one of the choices happens to earn commission, it shouldn't be a problem if this is disclosed. I don't see why we have to keep calling the consultant a corrupt person working for two masters. This language is a bit over the top, but that's just me.

The availability of a bonus/affiliate/commission/finders fee/whatever does not mean one "works for" the vendor, the vendor is not their second "master". However, the potential of the bonus may indeed cloud judgement and create bias.

@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

ver something stupid like some account credits or a 20 spot.

I don't think anyone is calling you specifically corrupt salesman, not a real IT guy, but we are saying you're not a consultant.

You are a VAR, and there is NOTHING wrong with being a VAR, as long as everyone is aware that you are a VAR, and you're not calling yourself a consultant.

If I were a VAR I would just be selling my one product. But instead I do the work of consultant, researching many possible solutions and presenting them as options.

Why do you think that? CDW is a VAR and they sell everything.

The assumption was that if I have 5 favorite products but an affiliate of one of them, this magically makes me a VAR instead of consultant.
Well fine, splitting hairs on definitions, it's what nerds do.

My push back is that the one single affiliate product in my toolbox does little to influence me. If I accept that there is 100% bias toward that product now, ok, but it doesn't mean at ALL that simple work ethic and morals won't win out the day. At the end of the day, I still only want to do what's best for the client, not myself.

Scott's situation is naturally far different from my own. They are a provider, there are many layers, employees, contractors, whatever. affiliations are impossible to deal with. Who gets the money? The business owner, the CEO? If he gets it, will that influence how he trains his consultants and pushes them? Will he offer additional incentives to push those? If the consultants themselves get it, then the CEO has to worry about all that bias and whether his company is really neutral about things, maybe he won't want to allow it?

In my case, or the case of one person with a name in the phone book, it's not as complicated. I'm not talking about $30k commissions from VMAX. I'm talking about web hosting or some cloud service or a product purchase link. Very small amounts to be sure, but not as influential as $30k might be.
Or in the case where I sell an off the shelf solution or "package". Something like "hosting + install + this + that" is all wrapped up with the "service" options built-in, affiliates included. They aren't paying for consultant, they are paying for the end result, as long as it works!

So many different angles to this discussion. Absolutes should not be the conclusion. I think ethics, morals, controls, policies, etc, can mitigate simple bias.

I'm heading out so no more responses from me till tomorrow, should anybody care to continue. I guess this conversation has happened before so. Kicking up old issues.

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

So my challenge is, I'm walking down that sidewalk anyway, I don't feel particularly righteous by stepping over the money and walking on my way.

But, as we pointed out, this is a totally false analogy and never does this happen. You never step over money until after you have done something to make it appear. The sidewalk analogy simply isn't true, but makes it sound better than it is. This analogy approach makes me feel like you are trying to convince yourself, not us, that the money is just lying there. Using it makes us feel even moreso that it is not.

Lol, but your assumption is that the ONLY POSSIBLE REASON for taking that sidewalk is TO MAKE the money appear in the first place.
Your absolutism about the bias is what I reject. There are MANY reasons one might take an action that makes the money appear, the last or least of which is purely for the money itself.

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

My view is that some affiliate programs are like picking up money on the sidewalk, it's just there, take it. Then you say, no, because you must take action before the money appears. Yes of course, I have to be walking down that particular sidewalk!
So my challenge is, I'm walking down that sidewalk anyway, I don't feel particularly righteous by stepping over the money and walking on my way.
If I find myself walking down that same sidewalk 80% of the time, some extra cash is a nice bonus.

But the other 20% of the time.... what? You truly believe there is zero influence?

No, what I believe is that I can STILL come up with the best solution. Just because bias might exist, it doesn't mean it actually WILL change the outcome.
The 20% of the time the other sidewalk is a better fit, so be it.

@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

ver something stupid like some account credits or a 20 spot.

I don't think anyone is calling you specifically corrupt salesman, not a real IT guy, but we are saying you're not a consultant.

You are a VAR, and there is NOTHING wrong with being a VAR, as long as everyone is aware that you are a VAR, and you're not calling yourself a consultant.

If I were a VAR I would just be selling my one product. But instead I do the work of consultant, researching many possible solutions and presenting them as options.

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@Breffni-Potter said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

I'm going to use a childish example.

I hire you, to go into bakeries and pick the best baker for me.

Now, you are down to 2 bakeries.

One of them, says they will give you some money if your client buys from them. The other does not.

Which bakery will you most likely recommend?

Now, your client finds out about this, how does that affect your relationship and the work you delivered for them?

Ok, if I may.

If a person wants a bakery, one of the first things out of my mouth is who I consider top bakeries already. I'm not going to somehow "pretend" like I never heard of bakery A and then kind of "pretend" that they come out on top while secretly knowing all along I have a commission with them.

In the real world, I would disclose that I have a recommended baker that I work with and here are the benefits X, Y, Z.

Nobody is suggesting to be sleazy or secretive about affiliations or partner vendors or solutions or that a particular link is an affiliate.

Completely hiding the affiliation or pretending like your top baker was totally by accident is what I think we're talking about, is "corrupt".

If you are disclosing everything, then there is no issue. You can get any commission you want, conscious free, as long as it is disclosed. No problem at all there.

To be clear, the only reason this topic is getting a reactionary response is due to the inherent offense at basically being told "you are corrupt!" and thus no good as a consultant due to a possible affiliation.

This just makes people defensive to try and prove how they are NOT corrupt because nobody wants to be told they are over something stupid like some account credits or a 20 spot.

This makes me, perhaps others at other times, reactionary to defend the idea of affiliations and bias, even though I totally agree money can bias people. That's not even under question. I just argue it isn't the case in many circumstances. When the affiliate fee is paltry compared to the job for example, or paltry in general. Or when the product is exceptional and often recommended by default.
"Hey, can you recommend a program that takes files and folders and choose and backs them up to a USB drive?"
"Why yes sir I can, ALL of them."
"But which do you recommend?"
"How about THIS one, wink wink, nudge nudge."
"Thanks! Here is all my money!"

My view is that some affiliate programs are like picking up money on the sidewalk, it's just there, take it. Then you say, no, because you must take action before the money appears. Yes of course, I have to be walking down that particular sidewalk!
So my challenge is, I'm walking down that sidewalk anyway, I don't feel particularly righteous by stepping over the money and walking on my way.
If I find myself walking down that same sidewalk 80% of the time, some extra cash is a nice bonus.

Hey it's fine to disagree. The only affiliates I actually have in real life is InMotion for basic cPanel hosting, Amazon of course, and I think VULTR, but that only gives me credits, not cash. These are just banner ads on my business site. I only signed up for the program because I'd been using them quite successfully for about 6 years.

You can call me a corrupt salesman and not a real IT guy or consultant if you want. I just don't think it's that extreme. Heck, I just passed up a $300+ bonus for ecommerce solution because going with it would have lost us some enterprise benefits. Essentially we could get three free months going with a certain package, or start at a lower package and I get the $300. Well turns out it was better to start with the higher package and I get nothing, so that's what we did.
I can't say $300+ wasn't enticing, but ultimately I do right by the client. It's just work ethic. Work ethic CAN and WILL trump monetary gain in a moral person.

@Breffni-Potter said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said

In the real world, I would disclose that I have a recommended baker that I work with and here are the benefits X, Y, Z.

I don't care about the one person who happens to be your buddy or your mate or the only person you've ever used in the past though.

I'm paying you to go out and research all of them I want you to do detailed work. Then hand me the data.

I get you, but you're hiring a bakery consult. You assume I've never researched them before? That I've never recommended one and know what happened in the aftermath? That I've never seen a similar list of requirements and had similar research done? That I've never talked with peers about their own research and discoveries?

Let's not pretend that consulting is like starting from scratch on day one and you know nothing about the subject matter.
When Sally wants web hosting for less than $8 a month on Wordpress for her change-the-world social commentary blog, she couldn't give two rips about my ethics and morals. Grab a cheap host with cPanel, there are many, they'll do the job.

If Bob wants 12 chocolate muffins for his daughter's sleepover, I'm sure one baker or another isn't going to destroy the night either way.

All I'm saying is if someone wants a backup strategy, they will hire a consult who specializes to some degree, in just that. Surely they will have some favorites. They won't be online finding "Bob's Super Backup 5000!" that was just released a week ago. They won't be recommending such a new product anyway. Tried and true is good too.

@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv you keep saying sell. That should be the entire discussion. Period. End of Story.

A consultant consults. A salesperson sells. Period.

What if solution A requires 10 more man hours on the contract? That's monetary gain too. If the mortgage is due and the wife bought too many wingdings at the home store, solution A because bit more appealing.

Of course but those are consultant man hours and have nothing to do with getting paid by a third party.

I don't think he meant 10 more consulting hours.. he meant 10 more implementation hours. - unless you did mean consulting hours @guyinpv ?

I wasn't thinking in terms of consult versus implement. That's an interesting angle.

Typically I do both for people.

@Breffni-Potter said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

I'm going to use a childish example.

I hire you, to go into bakeries and pick the best baker for me.

Now, you are down to 2 bakeries.

One of them, says they will give you some money if your client buys from them. The other does not.

Which bakery will you most likely recommend?

Now, your client finds out about this, how does that affect your relationship and the work you delivered for them?

Ok, if I may.

If a person wants a bakery, one of the first things out of my mouth is who I consider top bakeries already. I'm not going to somehow "pretend" like I never heard of bakery A and then kind of "pretend" that they come out on top while secretly knowing all along I have a commission with them.

In the real world, I would disclose that I have a recommended baker that I work with and here are the benefits X, Y, Z.

Nobody is suggesting to be sleazy or secretive about affiliations or partner vendors or solutions or that a particular link is an affiliate.

Completely hiding the affiliation or pretending like your top baker was totally by accident is what I think we're talking about, is "corrupt".

@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv you keep saying sell. That should be the entire discussion. Period. End of Story.

A consultant consults. A salesperson sells. Period.

A consultant consults.....about what the client should buy. Sounds like sales to me. The only difference is whether there is some other monetary gain for the recommended solution.

What if solution A requires 10 more man hours on the contract? That's monetary gain too. If the mortgage is due and the wife bought too many wingdings at the home store, solution A because bit more appealing.

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

I sign up because it's just THERE, easy, free, simple. I think of it as nothing more than walking down the sidewalk and seeing a $50 bill. I bend over and pick it up because it's there. Something I wasn't expecting, but hey it's there.

it's not like that at all - because you KNOW the $50 will be there after you 'recommend' a product.

Right, there isn't just money laying around... it only appears after you've done a specific action.

And your big assumption which is illogical, is that one ONLY does the action BECAUSE there is money laying around. I simply disagree with this. Not in every case.

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

I sign up because it's just THERE, easy, free, simple. I think of it as nothing more than walking down the sidewalk and seeing a $50 bill. I bend over and pick it up because it's there. Something I wasn't expecting, but hey it's there.

But you only get to pick it up if you tell someone to spend money in a specific way. It's not at all like just picking up free money.

But that's how I think of it as.

You mentioned Ubiquity's program. If the program requires contracts and quotas and all this garbage, no thanks, I'll pass. But if it's just pressing the OK button, it's free money. Just a bonus. Just bending over and picking it up simply because it's there.

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

I don't sign up for an affiliation because I somehow WANT and CHOOSE to have "money drive their actions". I don't want money to drive my actions at all! I signed up because it's just available to do.

Is that also why you want to consult? If not, why does one set of money influence you and why does one not?

Because my MAIN job, is much more. You really think if I'm doing a $1000 or $3000 job that the addition or lack of a $20 affiliate link is going to swing things on way or the other?

On the other hand, I agree that if I'm doing a job for $100 but the affiliation is $150, that can feel very influential.
Or even worse, lets say I simply get an email from somebody asking a question. I can easily email them my links back. This is job that pays nothing, yet I could end up with some money just the same.

The amount of bias, then, seems quite relative.

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

You are unwilling to allow for someone to continue giving solid advice and solutions irregardless of affiliations.

Pretty much, that's correct. Someone choosing to have money drive their actions, who then accepts money given for the express purpose of driving their actions in another way, will be influenced by that money. And doing sales under the guise of consulting is unethical.

That is correct, I feel that that is essentially black and white. If you consult for the purpose of making money, you can't not be swayed by someone giving you money for another purpose. The fact that this is your job makes you influenced by money.

This is just a play on words, and why we're going around and around.

I don't sign up for an affiliation because I somehow WANT and CHOOSE to have "money drive their actions". I don't want money to drive my actions at all! I signed up because it's just available to do.

I sign up because it's just THERE, easy, free, simple. I think of it as nothing more than walking down the sidewalk and seeing a $50 bill. I bend over and pick it up because it's there. Something I wasn't expecting, but hey it's there.
Similarly, I often recommend product X, then I get an email "hey we do affiliate! Click this link" so I click the link, click OK, and done. So easy. A bonus if it ever actually comes through.
I wake up the next morning feeling no different than I did before. Corruption hasn't overtaken my veins magically. I don't feel particular shifty or conniving!

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

Sure the negative aspects of human nature may take over in many or even most all cases, but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

Only if the baby is the commission. If the commission comes across as the baby, doesn't that show why we feel concern? If the commission is tiny, is it worth the conflict? If the money is big, then there is big conflict.

The baby is the consultant themselves. They can ONLY be a good consultant when there is zero monetary gain from recommending any particular solution. But if there IS gain from any particular solution, they become a CORRUPT consultant immediately.
You are unwilling to allow for someone to continue giving solid advice and solutions irregardless of affiliations.

I'm suggesting there is a lot of reasons why a consultant might be biased, money is only one angle. Maybe they are just used to it. They work faster with it. The setup process is smoother. They have some kind of remote abilities. They find tech support easier to use.
All these create "bias" too. The best solution might actually be a product the consultant has never heard of yet. The best solution might be the one they avoid because it's too complex or requires too much of his time to train the client.
Bias is everywhere, but you are suggesting monetary bias is especially damning. But any of the above can lead to bad solutions too.

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

Lastly, commissions are not the only thing can cloud someone's view. If the client is cheap and wants as fast as possible, you might be tempted to recommend products you are most familiar with and can work quickly with.

Yes, as long as you are disclosing that you are being offered money to act against the potential interests of the customer. But it's all on your shoulders to make it ethical.

This kind of sentence is what keeps bugging me.

No, how about I am acting exactly in the best interests of the client AND recommended the best solutions AND getting a small finder's fee?

Why is this impossible? Of course it's not impossible.

Sure the negative aspects of human nature may take over in many or even most all cases, but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

Do you sell it for the commission, or do you sell it anyway and a commission is just a bonus?

I don't see any problem with a little earned commission on selling things you already promote anyway. Just as long as those little commission benefits don't cloud your judgement about clients' needs.

How can it not?

And while you might not not allow it to cloud your judgement, as someone hiring you, I can't know that.

If my goal is to hire you as a consultant looking for the best option for me, it's in my best interest for you to only be getting paid by me and no one else (at least in relation to the products/project that I want your consultant opinion on).

Likewise, that partner is paying you to sell their product, rather than to listen to my needs. You cannot serve two masters. There is no way to "do right" by both, you have to pick. And one pays more than the other, and more consistently.

Affiliate commission is not a partnership. They don't call me, send me brochures, offer me vacation packages, send me to conferences and sales training etc. I don't even get a free T-shirt.
I just sign up for an affiliate of my own will, for products I already love and recommend a lot anyway. I never hear from them, there is no pressure from them to influence me at all.

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

My opinion is that in most cases, especially independents like me, the small affiliates I get from my favorite products are a simple value add, or bonus, for me. I would be recommending the product anyway.

Maybe you feel that everyone is like you and able to 100% ignore the fact that you get money. But this is not even slightly mirrored in the real world. To the point that I don't even know where you could find an example of it.

Small time folk like me? I was raised with a good Christian work ethic. I'm not out to give anybody bad advice or trick people. If anything I'm guilty of charging too little, rounding down, and not adding any time for emails, phone calls, driving, or my own research into subjects.

I'm sorry that these are the only sorts of people you've rubbed shoulders with! Perhaps you've been to too many IT tech conventions!!

@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

"sales pays to anti-consult" <--- Really? By offering an affiliate/commission system, the product automatically becomes the worst choice in all scenarios? It's very possible that the product BOTH fills the need perfectly, AND offers commission. Another non-sequitur.

Absolutely, it just means that the consulting is corrupted. It says nothing about the solution. You are making an implication that was not said.

But why would someone pay for fake consulting when they could have gotten straight sales for free?

This doesn't answer it.
If a particular product fits a particular need perfectly, the inclusion (or not) of an affiliate bonus changes nothing whatsoever. The best solution is the best solution.

@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:

Do you sell it for the commission, or do you sell it anyway and a commission is just a bonus?

I don't see any problem with a little earned commission on selling things you already promote anyway. Just as long as those little commission benefits don't cloud your judgement about clients' needs.

How can it not?

And while you might not not allow it to cloud your judgement, as someone hiring you, I can't know that.

If my goal is to hire you as a consultant looking for the best option for me, it's in my best interest for you to only be getting paid by me and no one else (at least in relation to the products/project that I want your consultant opinion on).

Many shops are not shy at all about advertising their loyalties. "Certified HP Servers!" "Dell certified reseller!" "Apple certified!" "Your local source for bla bla bla!"

I see these all the time. Their loyalties don't affect me. If I want a server and they say they only do Dells, that seems just as limiting, or just as immoral as the shop who actually offers 5 vendors but two of them have a commission program. What's the difference? Both of them have their loyalties and clouded offerings.