Why is VMWare considered so often
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@dafyre said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
The VMware web console (last I looked) was still only compatible with Windows... Have they finally gotten away from that?
It relied on flash. The new one is HTML5 so it should work anywhere.
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@Breffni-Potter said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
Case sensitive emails are apparently a thing.
Thanks @DustinB3403
eh... Text.txt and text.txt are two unique records to linux... so yeah I mean it makes sense... You aren't registered with "[email protected]" but are in fact registered with "[email protected]"
Seems like I should go and register with "[email protected]" just to mess with you a bit.
This way you'll get invalid password..... lol
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@coliver said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@dafyre said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
The VMware web console (last I looked) was still only compatible with Windows... Have they finally gotten away from that?
It relied on flash. The new one is HTML5 so it should work anywhere.
Did Flash somehow make it Windows only? Flash used to be on Android phones..
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@Dashrender said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@coliver said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@dafyre said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
The VMware web console (last I looked) was still only compatible with Windows... Have they finally gotten away from that?
It relied on flash. The new one is HTML5 so it should work anywhere.
Did Flash somehow make it Windows only? Flash used to be on Android phones..
Flash has never worked on iOS. And tons of places haven't allowed Flash for years (or ever.) Flash is anything but a universal standard. It's "available" on most, but not all, platforms and on some it is spotty support at best. But given that so many people and companies don't allow it, you can't rely on it without really being a problem. You might as well require people to have Silverlight or something else ridiculous.
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@Breffni-Potter said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@Breffni-Potter said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@scottalanmiller said
And XO causes back pressure that propels XS forward.
Which is basically my point. If someone is researching it as an alternative, why would the tool not big up the platform it runs on?
Because no one is finding it that way. No one looks at XO and says "I should change my platform to use this." It's not just realistic. It's the other way around, XO beefs up XS features so that XS is more competitive.
I go to Xen Server.
I then go to Xen OrchestraOn the second site....there is yet another chance to pitch/convey the benefits of the former.
If the person buys into the former, surely they will buy into the latter.
So surely XO bigs it up as XS people who research XS might end up on XO to look at how to manage XS.
Does that make more sense?
Again, you keep coming back to the parts store idea but if someone wants to research if they can even buy parts in their region, why would they not be looking at parts shops in their area?
In this case, why would you buy into a hyper-visor unless you also had the tools to manage it. XO is a tool.
The problem with this is - I don't see Veeam spouting about how awesome Hyper-V or ESXi is, or any backup product that works either one or the other or both of these vendors. That's not their job. You would only end up at Veeam after you decided you wanted a backup solution for ESXi or Hyper-V.
The same goes here. The the XS server pages speak for themselves and let the add-ons speak for themselves. If the add-one is spouting on about the product they run on, instead of themselves - I'd ask - do you not have anything to say about your own product that you need to fill your page up with why that other decision you made was right?
When I go to a Chevy parts store (is their such a thing outside the dealer - and the dealer don't count) I wouldn't expect them to be spouting about how awesome Chevy's are - why would they need to waste their money on that? instead they should be advertising their cool ass products for your chevy.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@Dashrender said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@coliver said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@dafyre said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
The VMware web console (last I looked) was still only compatible with Windows... Have they finally gotten away from that?
It relied on flash. The new one is HTML5 so it should work anywhere.
Did Flash somehow make it Windows only? Flash used to be on Android phones..
Flash has never worked on iOS. And tons of places haven't allowed Flash for years (or ever.) Flash is anything but a universal standard. It's "available" on most, but not all, platforms and on some it is spotty support at best. But given that so many people and companies don't allow it, you can't rely on it without really being a problem. You might as well require people to have Silverlight or something else ridiculous.
I consider requiring Java on the endpoint in the same vein, but again that wasn't my question or point. Someone asked
@dafyre said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
The VMware web console (last I looked) was still only compatible with Windows... Have they finally gotten away from that?
So I'm asking - did the VMWare web console only work on Windows? really? you couldn't install FF on Linux with Flash and get it to work? if that's true - damn... just damn!
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@DustinB3403 said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@Breffni-Potter said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
Case sensitive emails are apparently a thing.
Thanks @DustinB3403
eh... Text.txt and text.txt are two unique records to linux... so yeah I mean it makes sense... You aren't registered with "[email protected]" but are in fact registered with "[email protected]"
Linux isn't a factor. The issue is SMTP. The SMTP protocol is case sensitive no matter what operating system you are talking on. SMTP at the network layer is case sensitive. The vast majority of email servers decide to be case insensitive so they flatten incoming messages to lower case internally and reduce permutations. This works fine as they control who can register with their system. But any system that relies on email in the other direction (sending or authenticating against) must remain case sensitive if they do not control the creation of mailboxes or else they will fail to be universally compatible with SMTP email addresses.
So yes, email is case sensitive and always has been. But most places don't allow case sensitively in the creation of local accounts.
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@Dashrender said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
So I'm asking - did the VMWare web console only work on Windows? really? you couldn't install FF on Linux with Flash and get it to work? if that's true - damn... just damn!
I think that you could get it to work, it was just crap wherever you used it. But you could not get it to work in a lot of places no matter what.
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@olivier said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@wrx7m said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@coliver Veeam - It is awesome
Without being too off topic, could you list the top 5 things you like the most about VEEAM? This could give me ideas for XO
- As SAM mentioned file level is a huge thing
- File level exclusions
- Agentless, because it uses the VMware API for snapshotting but does use proxies which require a small installer but doesn't need to be on any particular system. Could be virtual or physical. I use virtual because I get better performance if the proxy is on the same host as the source VM.
- They keep introducing new features and support for more products
- v9 has added scale-out backup repositories, a remote client management console and several storage vendor shapshotting support
- AD explorer
- Sure backup so you can test your VM backup
- Veeam endpoint free integrates into the Veeam management console.
- Backup copy job allows you to have the completed backup copied to another location and it doesn't affect the production storage because it copies out of the repository.
- They discount licensing for SMB for up to 6 CPU sockets.
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@wrx7m said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@olivier said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@wrx7m said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@coliver Veeam - It is awesome
Without being too off topic, could you list the top 5 things you like the most about VEEAM? This could give me ideas for XO
- As SAM mentioned file level is a huge thing
Makes sense.
- File level exclusions
If you are at file level, logical.
- Agentless, because it uses the VMware API for snapshotting but does use proxies which require a small installer but doesn't need to be on any particular system. Could be virtual or physical. I use virtual because I get better performance if the proxy is on the same host as the source VM.
Wait. It's at the file level and agentless? I don't get it. You didn't installed any VEEAM software neither on VM or hypervisor? ✓
- They keep introducing new features and support for more products
What do you mean by support for more product? Do you have some examples?
- v9 has added scale-out backup repositories, a remote client management console and several storage vendor shapshotting support
What is scale-out backup in few words?
- AD explorer
I don't get the point of this, but I'm not a Windows user. What's the connection with backup?
- Sure backup so you can test your VM backup
It means you import the backup without replacing your original VM, thus you could test it? ✓
- Veeam endpoint free integrates into the Veeam management console.
- Backup copy job allows you to have the completed backup copied to another location and it doesn't affect the production storage because it copies out of the repository.
✓
- They discount licensing for SMB for up to 6 CPU sockets.
I'll check their pricing page, do you have roughly a price in a SMB situation?
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@Dashrender said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@coliver said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@dafyre said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
The VMware web console (last I looked) was still only compatible with Windows... Have they finally gotten away from that?
It relied on flash. The new one is HTML5 so it should work anywhere.
Did Flash somehow make it Windows only? Flash used to be on Android phones..
Flash didn't. There were several features that would only work on Windows though. The VM Console is just one example of this.
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@olivier said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@wrx7m said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@olivier said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@wrx7m said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@coliver Veeam - It is awesome
Without being too off topic, could you list the top 5 things you like the most about VEEAM? This could give me ideas for XO
- As SAM mentioned file level is a huge thing
Makes sense.
- File level exclusions
If you are at file level, logical.
- Agentless, because it uses the VMware API for snapshotting but does use proxies which require a small installer but doesn't need to be on any particular system. Could be virtual or physical. I use virtual because I get better performance if the proxy is on the same host as the source VM.
Wait. It's at the file level and agentless? I don't get it. You didn't installed any VEEAM software neither on VM or hypervisor? ✓
Something like how Unitrends works would be ideal.- They keep introducing new features and support for more products
What do you mean by support for more product? Do you have some examples?
He means keep improving the product or have price tiers for specific feature sets in the XOA version. For example if you only need Delta and File level backup capabilities you don't buy Continuous Replication functionality- v9 has added scale-out backup repositories, a remote client management console and several storage vendor shapshotting support
What is scale-out backup in few words?
Easily able to expand your backup target, so maybe XO offers a backup system as a part of the monthly cost of XOA for paid subscribers.- AD explorer
I don't get the point of this, but I'm not a Windows user. What's the connection with backup?
- Sure backup so you can test your VM backup
It means you import the backup without replacing your original VM, thus you could test it? ✓
- Veeam endpoint free integrates into the Veeam management console.
- Backup copy job allows you to have the completed backup copied to another location and it doesn't affect the production storage because it copies out of the repository.
✓
- They discount licensing for SMB for up to 6 CPU sockets.
I'll check their pricing page, do you have roughly a price in a SMB situation?
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@olivier
Veeam installs components on the hypervisor. I have no idea what Unitrends does.That is not relevant to his point.
Veeam mounts the VM backup to a temporary instance in order to let you do file level recovery without an agent in the guest.
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Microsoft runs their whole company on Hyper-V, so saying it isn't scaleable is unfounded; however, saying that complexity of scaling up is significantly higher proportional to the same scaling in VMware is accurate. I would consider Hyper-V mature at this point. In fact I would pick it over VMware in almost all situations. In my experience with both, VMware does several things better than hyper-V, but Hyper-V is also completely capable, just with an increased step-count.
My top 5 for VMware advantages over Hyper-V:
- Cluster management. MS's vCenter is SCVMM, which is garbage. I fight with it daily.
- Host profiles - a very cool feature in VMware that Hyper-V can only do in a limited and hugely complicated capacity (think DSC).
- VM Cloning. In VMWare it's 3 clicks. Hyper-V is a 10+ step to make sure you don't have VM ID/GUID conflicts.
- Community and 3rd party support. Every company builds for VMware first. Hyper-V second. Xen third?
- Distributed switches vs Hyper-V VMM Logical switches. It's apples to oranges. No comparison.
Despite those 5 things, I would still pick Hyper-V over VMware for cost alone. VMware needs to realize that their pricing model is losing thousands of potential customers.
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@TAHIN said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
Microsoft runs their whole company on Hyper-V, so saying it isn't scaleable is unfounded; ....
Technically they run on Azure which isn't Hyper-V specifically because they had scaling issues with Hyper-V. Azure and Hyper-V are super closely related, but not exactly the same. I think Hyper-V probably scales pretty decently well, but MS doesn't use it primarily internally or for customer hosting at this point.
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@TAHIN said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
VMware needs to realize that their pricing model is losing thousands of potential customers.
They realize and they don't care. I mean that literally. They basically don't want to deal with the "freebie" market and use their price model as a means of eliminating it. They only sell VMware, so going to something free like their competitors would leave them with essentially nothing to sell.
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@olivier said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@wrx7m said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@olivier said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@wrx7m said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@coliver Veeam - It is awesome
Without being too off topic, could you list the top 5 things you like the most about VEEAM? This could give me ideas for XO
- As SAM mentioned file level is a huge thing
Makes sense.
- File level exclusions
If you are at file level, logical.
- Agentless, because it uses the VMware API for snapshotting but does use proxies which require a small installer but doesn't need to be on any particular system. Could be virtual or physical. I use virtual because I get better performance if the proxy is on the same host as the source VM.
Wait. It's at the file level and agentless? I don't get it. You didn't installed any VEEAM software neither on VM or hypervisor? ✓
- They keep introducing new features and support for more products
What do you mean by support for more product? Do you have some examples?
- v9 has added scale-out backup repositories, a remote client management console and several storage vendor shapshotting support
What is scale-out backup in few words?
- AD explorer
I don't get the point of this, but I'm not a Windows user. What's the connection with backup?
- Sure backup so you can test your VM backup
It means you import the backup without replacing your original VM, thus you could test it? ✓
- Veeam endpoint free integrates into the Veeam management console.
- Backup copy job allows you to have the completed backup copied to another location and it doesn't affect the production storage because it copies out of the repository.
✓
- They discount licensing for SMB for up to 6 CPU sockets.
I'll check their pricing page, do you have roughly a price in a SMB situation?
Veeam has added support for more and more storage vendor product integration. EMC, HPE, Netapp and more. Also they added explorer for Oracle.
The sale-out backup repository lets you add/combine different types of storage to use as a backup target and it manages how it uses them.
Surebackup - You create a test lab in Veeam that adds a small "appliance" on the host. You can have it boot up the necessary VMs that the backed up VM needs, for Instance, a DC (From its most recent backup). Then the backed up VM you want to test gets added to that isolated network (lab) and booted. From there you can have it check for services, like DNS or run sql queries or another script so you can be sure that the backup is recoverable.
The cost is pretty reasonable. They do have a couple of tiers, even at the SMB discounted rate. I have the Small Business Essentials Enterprise. Like I mentioned you can have up to 6 sockets. You buy in a two-pack. So if you had 2 hosts with 1 socket each, you only need 1 two-pack. For 2 sockets, I paid just under $1500 for the initial which included a single year of maintenance. I already had 4 sockets from the year before but added a host. This was in 2014. In 2015 I paid 2-years of maintenance for all my licenses (6 sockets) at $1866.
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@wrx7m said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@olivier said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@wrx7m said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@olivier said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@wrx7m said in Why is VMWare considered so often:
@coliver Veeam - It is awesome
Without being too off topic, could you list the top 5 things you like the most about VEEAM? This could give me ideas for XO
- As SAM mentioned file level is a huge thing
Makes sense.
- File level exclusions
If you are at file level, logical.
- Agentless, because it uses the VMware API for snapshotting but does use proxies which require a small installer but doesn't need to be on any particular system. Could be virtual or physical. I use virtual because I get better performance if the proxy is on the same host as the source VM.
Wait. It's at the file level and agentless? I don't get it. You didn't installed any VEEAM software neither on VM or hypervisor? ✓
- They keep introducing new features and support for more products
What do you mean by support for more product? Do you have some examples?
- v9 has added scale-out backup repositories, a remote client management console and several storage vendor shapshotting support
What is scale-out backup in few words?
- AD explorer
I don't get the point of this, but I'm not a Windows user. What's the connection with backup?
- Sure backup so you can test your VM backup
It means you import the backup without replacing your original VM, thus you could test it? ✓
- Veeam endpoint free integrates into the Veeam management console.
- Backup copy job allows you to have the completed backup copied to another location and it doesn't affect the production storage because it copies out of the repository.
✓
- They discount licensing for SMB for up to 6 CPU sockets.
I'll check their pricing page, do you have roughly a price in a SMB situation?
Veeam has added support for more and more storage vendor product integration. EMC, HPE, Netapp and more. Also they added explorer for Oracle.
The sale-out backup repository lets you add/combine different types of storage to use as a backup target and it manages how it uses them.
Surebackup - You create a test lab in Veeam that adds a small "appliance" on the host. You can have it boot up the necessary VMs that the backed up VM needs, for Instance, a DC (From its most recent backup). Then the backed up VM you want to test gets added to that isolated network (lab) and booted. From there you can have it check for services, like DNS or run sql queries or another script so you can be sure that the backup is recoverable.
The cost is pretty reasonable. They do have a couple of tiers, even at the SMB discounted rate. I have the Small Business Essentials Enterprise. Like I mentioned you can have up to 6 sockets. You buy in a two-pack. So if you had 2 hosts with 1 socket each, you only need 1 two-pack. For 2 sockets, I paid just under $1500 for the initial which included a single year of maintenance. I already had 4 sockets from the year before but added a host. This was in 2014. In 2015 I paid 2-years of maintenance for all my licenses (6 sockets) at $1866.
Wow.. that maintenance costs seems a bit high, but I guess it's only $311 per processor. I'll have to lookup what my customer just paid for their maintenance.
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@Dashrender That is also for two years. Bringing the total to $155.50 per socket, per year.
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@wrx7m Thanks for the pricing details, really interesting!
