Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10
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@Dashrender said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
@bnrstnr said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
Here's another thing that clearly states you must have a valid Windows 10 license to use the MCT
Yes, and Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 qualify as licenses for that. Windows 10 is just Windows rebranded, it's not a separate product. Those are, and always have been valid licenses.
how do you come to that conclusion?
Besides Microsoft's own documentation? I mean... I'm unclear where you are wondering that it isn't correct. This is just baseline knowledge of the Microsoft product line. Windows NT has been the same product line since 1993, that's never changed. And Microsoft has both paperwork documentation as to what is a valid and genuine Windows NT family license, and what is currently in support, and the MCT has documentation as to which versions are up-gradable using that tool. Each piece of the statement is well known and well documented.
And Microsoft took the time, and I know you think MS being queried and verifying assumptions doesn't matter but that doesn't change the legal situation that it does, to verify technically that proper keys from those three specific situations are listed in the EULA and validated by their servers. That's not an accident no matter what smoke someone tries to blow. Specifically allowing Windows 7 is completely different than "accidentally" validating something "believed to be Windows 7". That's why the EULA protects against the other case by making the license only apply when valid and genuine. But when valid and genuine, the activation servers check the right thing and do their job properly.
When you honestly (e.g. not with cracked keys or pirated software) query Microsoft's license and key verification system, it returns that Windows 7, 8 and 8.1 qualify for the upgrade that the MCT granted the EULA for.
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So offline Dash mentioned to me that he didn't believe that the MCT was intended to be used to upgrade Windows 7. But this is easy to prove because the tool itself states that this is part of its use case, the tool was written to not just work for this but to verify that you are on Windows 7 or later before running, runs in all the cases we have listed, and has official documentation like this from MS that describe it as one of the key upgrade methods: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/enterprise/windows-7-to-windows-10-upgrade-manual
So that clears up one piece of misunderstanding, that it was believed that the MCT itself was a workaround and somehow being "tricked" into doing an unintended install. The MCT is supposed to work this way, and that's the root of why this process works. Properly obtained media.
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@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
So offline Dash mentioned to me that he didn't believe that the MCT was intended to be used to upgrade Windows 7. But this is easy to prove because the tool itself states that this is part of its use case, the tool was written to not just work for this but to verify that you are on Windows 7 or later before running, runs in all the cases we have listed, and has official documentation like this from MS that describe it as one of the key upgrade methods: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/enterprise/windows-7-to-windows-10-upgrade-manual
So that clears up one piece of misunderstanding, that it was believed that the MCT itself was a workaround and somehow being "tricked" into doing an unintended install. The MCT is supposed to work this way, and that's the root of why this process works. Properly obtained media.
How is this the rationale, we've been over this numerous times over this topic and numerous other topics.
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@DustinB3403 well the theory was that we were getting the MCT to work but not as intended, making it a workaround the the EULA invalid. But since the MCT is being used properly, the EULA is in force.
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@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@DustinB3403 well the theory was that we were getting the MCT to work but not as intended, making it a workaround the the EULA invalid. But since the MCT is being used properly, the EULA is in force.
Theory of the tinfoil hat variety
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@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
The MCT also verifies the install before starting, for a second layer of automated protection from mistakes or misunderstandings.
This is why you should not use the MCT on one PC, and then take the resulting ISO/USB media and install it on all of your other PCs. It is important that the MCT run on the PC you are upgrading; to make sure you pass all the pre-requisites it is capable of verifying.
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@JasGot said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
The MCT also verifies the install before starting, for a second layer of automated protection from mistakes or misunderstandings.
This is why you should not use the MCT on one PC, and then take the resulting ISO/USB media and install it on all of your other PCs. It is important that the MCT run on the PC you are upgrading; to make sure you pass all the pre-requisites it is capable of verifying.
that's correct. Plus the license you get is just for one machine. That's a great point that I always think about but always forget to mention. The MCT download process itself provides the new license. It's for one machine. MS issues a new license each time you download.
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FFS, the problem with this thread, was @DustinB3403 as typical, spewing irrelevant bullshit.
Had he not kept reinforcing how stupid he is by posting his entire illegal setup, fully half the thread would not have happened.
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@JaredBusch said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
FFS, the problem with this thread, was @DustinB3403 as typical, spewing irrelevant bullshit.
Had he not kept reinforcing how stupid he is by posting his entire illegal setup, fully half the thread would not have happened.
That was an example of what wouldn't be valid, not a description of his own setup. It was a hypothetical to show people what would not work, but people picked it up and ran with it as if the invalid example of "obviously this wouldn't work" but people kept being confused and thinking that it should work or something weird.
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SW actually had a similar discussion some time ago and Chris (formerly Chris from MS -- who was always extremely helpful in answering licensing questions) replied in no uncertain terms that this is not a valid method of receiving a LEGAL license of Windows 10. There are also several comments noting the part in Microsoft's EULA that essentially states that "a successful activation in no way denotes legal entitlement". While Chris is no longer an employee, he's the closest word we have to a statement from Microsoft directly.
Having been a witness to a Microsoft LLC audit that I mentioned previously (where upgrades of Windows 7 PCs without 10 entitlement in MSDM/Bios/whatever performed after this date were listed as "unlicensed" (EDIT: I do not know the outcome of this, only that these were initially listed as the above but may have later been amended further into the audit process), with the careful wording around the EULA, with the blatant statements on their website, and numerous other MVPs and MS insiders stating that this is the case, I choose to err on the side of legality/compliance when we're possibly placing a client at risk.
Personal PC? Go ahead, I don't care.
Business PC? Buy a license and know you're compliant. -
@manxam said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
There are also several comments noting the part in Microsoft's EULA that essentially states that "a successful activation in no way denotes legal entitlement".
Right, but we covered that that's not applicable. That everyone keeps repeating it suggests that the point being made is misunderstood since that was never a factor.
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@manxam said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
and numerous other MVPs and MS insiders stating that this is the case,
But we got a quote from an MVP selected as Best Answer right on Microsoft.com stating that it WAS a valid method.
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@manxam said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
SW actually had a similar discussion some time ago and Chris (formerly Chris from MS -- who was always extremely helpful in answering licensing questions) replied in no uncertain terms that this is not a valid method of receiving a LEGAL license of Windows 10.
Did you read that thread? I just went through it and none of that is in there.
First, Chris isn't in that thread. So he didn't offer any input. He's not been with MS since this situation even existed, so he'd not have any insight anyway.
Second, the thread is about the stuff we've already covered doesn't apply. I couldn't find anything in the thread applying to the situation being discussed.
The summary of the thread is the same thing we knew from the beginning... that the activation isn't a factor. But since that's not the license that we are discussing, why link the thread.
That that thread has been linked suggests that the concerns around the activation aren't valid, because they are based on factors that aren't applicable here. If there is something in that thread relating to this discussion (e.g. nothing to do with the 2016 offer, the assisstive tech, or the activation), I'm not sure what it was.
The SW thread is great and makes lots of great points. The old paths are closed to us, activation doesn't mean license, on and on. All correct information (from what I can tell.) But what I don't see is anyone addressing the current upgrade path that we have been using which is not created by or associated with any of those things.
Here is a great quote from Rod-IT on the SW thread: "I don't know why you are fixated on the fact you 'can do it' and not 'does this make me licensed'". That really shows just how much that thread is different, as the threads here on ML are completely focused on "we've gotten a proper license" and not about the activation. If you go through these threads, we are constantly trying to very that the fully legal license is valid, no concern for how technical activation might work. Yes, activation is required, but it is required as part of the instructions in the EULA that we just received.
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@manxam said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
I choose to err on the side of legality/compliance when we're possibly placing a client at risk.
So do all of us. Hence why we've dug into the paperwork so thoroughly to ensure that every step of the way is blessed by Microsoft and results clearly in a new EULA and is based in no way on any activation status like people on SW were doing.
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I ran it by another person who, while not legal counsel, does the prelims on our legal stuff and he said it was a clearly issued new license as they issue a EULA to which you agree and as long as that EULA is freely given by MS, it's a fresh license. All the other stuff is just red herrings. The new license issues by Microsoft under honest pretenses is all that is needed (and the subsequent activation, of course, which the EULA stipulates.)
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@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
I ran it by another person who, while not legal counsel, does the prelims on our legal stuff and he said it was a clearly issued new license as they issue a EULA to which you agree and as long as that EULA is freely given by MS, it's a fresh license. All the other stuff is just red herrings. The new license issues by Microsoft under honest pretenses is all that is needed (and the subsequent activation, of course, which the EULA stipulates.)
Would it be a good idea to print and keep that EULA?
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@JasGot said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
I ran it by another person who, while not legal counsel, does the prelims on our legal stuff and he said it was a clearly issued new license as they issue a EULA to which you agree and as long as that EULA is freely given by MS, it's a fresh license. All the other stuff is just red herrings. The new license issues by Microsoft under honest pretenses is all that is needed (and the subsequent activation, of course, which the EULA stipulates.)
Would it be a good idea to print and keep that EULA?
Why would you keep a physical copy of anything like this today?
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@manxam "Having been a witness to a Microsoft LLC audit" - was this a SAM audit a BAS audit or an actual audit directly from MS? Unless it was from BAS, or directly from MS (not an affiliate) then is was just a sales pitch intended to extract money for nothing.
If you receive a new EULA and agree, you have received a new license, hence the term EULA - it's in the name "License Agreement"
Only a BAS audit has any teeth, and they really only go after habitual offenders, like installing office on 50 machines but only buying one retail box
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@JasGot said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
I ran it by another person who, while not legal counsel, does the prelims on our legal stuff and he said it was a clearly issued new license as they issue a EULA to which you agree and as long as that EULA is freely given by MS, it's a fresh license. All the other stuff is just red herrings. The new license issues by Microsoft under honest pretenses is all that is needed (and the subsequent activation, of course, which the EULA stipulates.)
Would it be a good idea to print and keep that EULA?
Never a bad idea. Although MS is not in the business of faking them. I'd not be worried as your original is on the drive of any working system. And if the system has died, it can't be audited.
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Just to clarify as I have dealt with this in the past, have consulted attorneys, and have done extensive research on MS licensing compliance. MS has three ways that they perform audits:
But first, a word from the lawyers.... Understanding licensing agreements are not for the faint of heart, nor for those who have not had professional legal training. They are complex, and even most attorneys will not attempt to tackle this multidimensional albatross. The law firm we used referred us to a firm that specializes in software licensing. They are expensive, and unless you are the target of an actual Microsoft license compliance verification or a Business Software Alliance audit you will not have to go down this rabbit hole.
Back to their methods:
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SAM audit, or Software Asset Management audit. This is voluntary, and is always done by a third party reseller. This is the most common encountered, and a lot of companies comply because they think it is required. It is not, and is in almost all cases, a sales pitch intended to extract licensing fees from the company whether they are needed or not. Again, this is voluntary, and you can refuse with no repercussions. I know what you are going to say..."But won't this lead to a full audit?" Nope... refused a number of them and never heard another word.
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Microsoft license compliance verification. This is invoked by Microsoft and is done by a third party accounting firm. This type of audit is rarely done, and if you are the target, you would receive a certified letter directly from Microsoft. At this point, you should engage an attorney. If you are the target of this type of audit, you are probably out of compliance, and you would probably already know you are out of compliance.
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BSA or Business Software Alliance audit. In most cases, this is triggered by a whistle blower who turned in your company. They offer rewards, so there is incentive for people to turn in companies who are pirating software. They do not exclusively audit Microsoft products, but this is by and large their biggest customer. They also act on behalf of Adobe, Autodesk, Oracle, and a litany of others. Again, with a BSA audit you would receive a certified letter, not an email, and again, if you get one of these, contact an attorney before doing anything.
At the end of the day, if you have been issued a EULA, and your software activates, you are probably just fine and have nothing to worry about.
Even if you end up with BSA or direct Microsoft audit, you will probably just have to buy some licenses and move on. Unless you are knowingly installing pirated software, or using some tool to bypass the activation process, you will likely never encounter anything beyond a SAM request.
I hope this clarifies some issues and belays some concerns.
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