Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be
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@DustinB3403 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@DustinB3403 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
No. . .
But he can walk and gets paid for what he'd worked.
Who said anything about him not being paid for the time he's already worked?
If there is no regulation, who enforces the employer to pay?
The laws. . .
But there is no law that states you are forced to provide a certain amount of notice in "Employment at will" states. You can leave, fired or let go at any time without notice.
That is not the same law as being required to pay employees for time worked.
I wish all of you would stop with this "employment at will" crap. It has next to nothing to do with an employee quitting. It has little to do with getting fired. 100% of the states are at-will employment. A few states have limitations/exceptions.
Having to deal with hiring and firing, I have read a bit, but as always IANAL
This link is one I have saved: https://www.upcounsel.com/at-will-employment-states
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@DustinB3403 so he walks out the door, and the employer refuses to pay what is owed for the last month. And there is no regulation for such a case? Damn, I wouldn't want to live in a place where this is the norm.
Of course they still owe him for any time worked. Him walking out the door/quitting has nothing to do with that. Sure they could make him sue them over it, but then he could likely go after some damages as well, I would assume that wouldn't be worth it to the company - just pay him and let him go.
What law would they sue against? If he's done nothing wrong, it is pretty hard to sue.
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@WLS-ITGuy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Carnival-Boy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Do you generally only give 2 weeks notice in the US?
Depends on the state. Wisconsin is a "hire at will" state. Technically no notice is needed but it is ideal to give 2 weeks.
No state has a law requiring notice. It's not a law, it's a custom that is almost worse than a law because it is enforced capriciously and secretly.
Like tipping.
Right. But if you don't tip, no one calls other restaurants for a reference before serving you
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Carnival-Boy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@WLS-ITGuy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Carnival-Boy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Do you generally only give 2 weeks notice in the US?
Depends on the state. Wisconsin is a "hire at will" state. Technically no notice is needed but it is ideal to give 2 weeks.
Wow. That must make succession planning a nightmare. I have to give 3 months notice, which is the norm in the UK.
Not really, since you have to have already planned for disasters like getting hit by a bus, there should be no need for a succession plan. How would your company handle you getting sick or something? Same thing, US companies are ready for that. So people quitting isn't a real fear to any functional company. It's not ideal, but not a serious risk.
Most US companies demand that you not even come into work for the last two weeks because you are no longer someone that they want to trust or invest in. In banking, for example, you are generally done (but paid) from the moment you give notice. You give notice and security escorts you to your desk to clean it out and to the door to go home, that's it. You don't get one minute at your computer again.
It's amazing how many times this hasn't been true for me - like everyone of them.
You mean being walked out?
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@coliver said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
When I left, my friends at the office told me they were meeting with a lawyer the very same day. Nothing came of it, because I didn't give them anything to base a lawsuit on, but the fact that they tried remains.
Been there, done that. Went "by the book" and escaped a job where nearly everyone stayed "forever" because they were threatened that if they left that they would destroy their lives (and often did.)
Didn't the threat of a lawsuit prevent you from working in the US for a long time?
Yes, several years.
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Been there, done that. Went "by the book" and escaped a job where nearly everyone stayed "forever" because they were threatened that if they left that they would destroy their lives (and often did.)
Yup, I know a few of the folks who left that horrid place. That's also the reason I'll be avoiding MSPs like the plague
Never seen this in an MSP, MSPs can't do that in the US. Suing someone is really the unique providence of the Fortune 500. Only the biggest companies can pull off the huge risk of suing someone because losing that suit could cost the company tens of millions.
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@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@DustinB3403 I see. And there is no compensation involved? Some countries I worked in, if you are sacked, you get compensation, but if you decide to leave, you get nothing
In the UK it depends. If you are sacked due to gross misconduct you wont get any money. If you are made redundant, you will get a set amount based on length of employment (could be more, but by law its at least that set amount), and if you take voluntary redundancy, you get a package as setup by the former employer... so, it depends.
If you signed a contract for 3 months notice, usually you can negotiate to leave early if you really want. "Im going to give two months". But, if you just walk out you didnt mean your contractual obligations and that could have ramifications.
In the US, one is called being fired and one being laid off. Laid off = made redundant.
Yep, here being laid off will see you get redundancy pay, being fired wont (unless you have a special contract).
Same in the US. But "redundancy pay" is called "unemployment" and comes from the state, not the employer.
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Why would you get a car working in IT? When do you need to drive anywhere? I don't even need a car to drive to work, let alone anywhere else.
In Israel, it was a standard benefit for all IT related employees. The idea was that anything in IT is considered a creative job, so if you suddenly have a great idea in the middle of the night, you just drive to the office and get to work on it (no remote jobs back in the 90s). The perk stuck around until it got taxed out of existence in 2007-2010-ish.
It's the "no remote" that makes it crappy. Sure, if we didn't allow people to work remotely, then obviously cars would be obvious. But I've been remote since the 1990s. So it's not a good benefit to be given a car, it's an artefact of not being treated as well. Had they let you work remotely, the car would make no sense to them or to you.
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@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Why would you get a car working in IT? When do you need to drive anywhere? I don't even need a car to drive to work, let alone anywhere else.
In Israel, it was a standard benefit for all IT related employees. The idea was that anything in IT is considered a creative job, so if you suddenly have a great idea in the middle of the night, you just drive to the office and get to work on it (no remote jobs back in the 90s). The perk stuck around until it got taxed out of existence in 2007-2010-ish.
I've worked a few MSP jobs in the UK and they usually say you have to use your own car. They do pay for petrol though, so if you have a good efficient car you can make some cash on it.
Why would a car come up? Is it because they were doing bench work? In the US, often you get a company car if you are a bench tech.
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Why would you get a car working in IT? When do you need to drive anywhere? I don't even need a car to drive to work, let alone anywhere else.
In Israel, it was a standard benefit for all IT related employees. The idea was that anything in IT is considered a creative job, so if you suddenly have a great idea in the middle of the night, you just drive to the office and get to work on it (no remote jobs back in the 90s). The perk stuck around until it got taxed out of existence in 2007-2010-ish.
shakes head - wow - so, you couldn't drive the car for any other reason than going to and from work, right? otherwise this really seems like a BS excuse to give everyone in that company cars.
Nothing wrong with making excuses to give everyone cars if that is what the company wants to do. Just really shitty if they are doing it not to be cool and nice, but to help make up for being so awful and not treating them like professionals (which can work from home essentially by definition.)
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@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Carnival-Boy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@WLS-ITGuy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Carnival-Boy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Do you generally only give 2 weeks notice in the US?
Depends on the state. Wisconsin is a "hire at will" state. Technically no notice is needed but it is ideal to give 2 weeks.
Wow. That must make succession planning a nightmare. I have to give 3 months notice, which is the norm in the UK.
Not really, since you have to have already planned for disasters like getting hit by a bus, there should be no need for a succession plan. How would your company handle you getting sick or something? Same thing, US companies are ready for that. So people quitting isn't a real fear to any functional company. It's not ideal, but not a serious risk.
Most US companies demand that you not even come into work for the last two weeks because you are no longer someone that they want to trust or invest in. In banking, for example, you are generally done (but paid) from the moment you give notice. You give notice and security escorts you to your desk to clean it out and to the door to go home, that's it. You don't get one minute at your computer again.
It's amazing how many times this hasn't been true for me - like everyone of them.
You mean being walked out?
Correct - I've always, just worked those two weeks - normally doing next to nothing, but showing up just the same while having all the same access I had before.
I was laid off once - that time they unplugged my computer (had a personal computer in the office as well as the provided one) from the network, but I wasn't walked out of the building. In fact - I went to a long lunch - well I was laid off - so not really a long lunch
- then returned around 4 PM, reconnected my PC to the network, downloaded what I wanted off the servers, then packed my stuff and left. it was crazy how little thought they put into our dismissals. about 6 of us were laid off that day. -
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@DustinB3403 I see. And there is no compensation involved? Some countries I worked in, if you are sacked, you get compensation, but if you decide to leave, you get nothing
In the UK it depends. If you are sacked due to gross misconduct you wont get any money. If you are made redundant, you will get a set amount based on length of employment (could be more, but by law its at least that set amount), and if you take voluntary redundancy, you get a package as setup by the former employer... so, it depends.
If you signed a contract for 3 months notice, usually you can negotiate to leave early if you really want. "Im going to give two months". But, if you just walk out you didnt mean your contractual obligations and that could have ramifications.
In the US, one is called being fired and one being laid off. Laid off = made redundant.
Yep, here being laid off will see you get redundancy pay, being fired wont (unless you have a special contract).
In the US, if you are laid off (made redundant) you can apply for unemployment benefits. This is a state level thing, all companies that have employees must pay into the unemployment benefit plan. this pool of money is used to help keep people afloat while they look for new work.
you can even apply to get this if fired or you quit, but it changes how long until you become eligible for those benefits.Here, its all by the company by law, not related to the the government paying anything. Official wording:
"You'll normally be entitled to statutory redundancy pay if you're an employee and you've been working for your current employer for 2 years or more. You'll get: half a week's pay for each full year you were under 22. one week's pay for each full year you were 22 or older, but under 41"
What happens if the company goes under and they aren't around to pay?
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@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@DustinB3403 I see. And there is no compensation involved? Some countries I worked in, if you are sacked, you get compensation, but if you decide to leave, you get nothing
In the UK it depends. If you are sacked due to gross misconduct you wont get any money. If you are made redundant, you will get a set amount based on length of employment (could be more, but by law its at least that set amount), and if you take voluntary redundancy, you get a package as setup by the former employer... so, it depends.
If you signed a contract for 3 months notice, usually you can negotiate to leave early if you really want. "Im going to give two months". But, if you just walk out you didnt mean your contractual obligations and that could have ramifications.
In the US, one is called being fired and one being laid off. Laid off = made redundant.
Yep, here being laid off will see you get redundancy pay, being fired wont (unless you have a special contract).
Same in the US. But "redundancy pay" is called "unemployment" and comes from the state, not the employer.
Well... there is more to it, but that's another topic.
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@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Carnival-Boy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@WLS-ITGuy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Carnival-Boy said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Do you generally only give 2 weeks notice in the US?
Depends on the state. Wisconsin is a "hire at will" state. Technically no notice is needed but it is ideal to give 2 weeks.
Wow. That must make succession planning a nightmare. I have to give 3 months notice, which is the norm in the UK.
Not really, since you have to have already planned for disasters like getting hit by a bus, there should be no need for a succession plan. How would your company handle you getting sick or something? Same thing, US companies are ready for that. So people quitting isn't a real fear to any functional company. It's not ideal, but not a serious risk.
Most US companies demand that you not even come into work for the last two weeks because you are no longer someone that they want to trust or invest in. In banking, for example, you are generally done (but paid) from the moment you give notice. You give notice and security escorts you to your desk to clean it out and to the door to go home, that's it. You don't get one minute at your computer again.
It's amazing how many times this hasn't been true for me - like everyone of them.
You mean being walked out?
Correct - I've always, just worked those two weeks - normally doing next to nothing, but showing up just the same while having all the same access I had before.
Yeah, that's the thing, it ends up being nearly a vacation. They can't make you do anything, they have no power over you. They can't just fire you without triggering their unemployment insurance claims to get hit or worse. So you end up doing the absolute minimum, having coffee, relaxing with zero stress, talking to other people and making them less productive, having long lunches, leaving early, and getting paid to do it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Dashrender said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@DustinB3403 I see. And there is no compensation involved? Some countries I worked in, if you are sacked, you get compensation, but if you decide to leave, you get nothing
In the UK it depends. If you are sacked due to gross misconduct you wont get any money. If you are made redundant, you will get a set amount based on length of employment (could be more, but by law its at least that set amount), and if you take voluntary redundancy, you get a package as setup by the former employer... so, it depends.
If you signed a contract for 3 months notice, usually you can negotiate to leave early if you really want. "Im going to give two months". But, if you just walk out you didnt mean your contractual obligations and that could have ramifications.
In the US, one is called being fired and one being laid off. Laid off = made redundant.
Yep, here being laid off will see you get redundancy pay, being fired wont (unless you have a special contract).
In the US, if you are laid off (made redundant) you can apply for unemployment benefits. This is a state level thing, all companies that have employees must pay into the unemployment benefit plan. this pool of money is used to help keep people afloat while they look for new work.
you can even apply to get this if fired or you quit, but it changes how long until you become eligible for those benefits.Here, its all by the company by law, not related to the the government paying anything. Official wording:
"You'll normally be entitled to statutory redundancy pay if you're an employee and you've been working for your current employer for 2 years or more. You'll get: half a week's pay for each full year you were under 22. one week's pay for each full year you were 22 or older, but under 41"
What happens if the company goes under and they aren't around to pay?
oh - well over there - there are probably some protections that magically pull money from somewhere to pay them.
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@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
It's the "no remote" that makes it crappy. Sure, if we didn't allow people to work remotely, then obviously cars would be obvious. But I've been remote since the 1990s. So it's not a good benefit to be given a car, it's an artefact of not being treated as well. Had they let you work remotely, the car would make no sense to them or to you.
Working with crappy dialup isn't fun, and most companies didn't even have the option for remote access back then. But the main reason was that it was cheaper for the companies to lease cars for the employees and claim tax deductible expenses for that, than to report larger gains and pay more tax (taxes are insanely high in Israel). When these cars became a taxable benefit and taxes rose higher and higher every year, it simply stopped making sense for an employee to take a company car instead of buying his own. But there was more than a decade of nothing but cars with various IT company stickers on the roads in Israel, good times, really.
My point here is, really, that until I actually relocated to another country, I was pretty certain that benefit is present everywhere
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
It's the "no remote" that makes it crappy. Sure, if we didn't allow people to work remotely, then obviously cars would be obvious. But I've been remote since the 1990s. So it's not a good benefit to be given a car, it's an artefact of not being treated as well. Had they let you work remotely, the car would make no sense to them or to you.
Working with crappy dialup isn't fun, and most companies didn't even have the option for remote access back then. But the main reason was that it was cheaper for the companies to lease cars for the employees and claim tax deductible expenses for that, than to report larger gains and pay more tax (taxes are insanely high in Israel). When these cars became a taxable benefit and taxes rose higher and higher every year, it simply stopped making sense for an employee to take a company car instead of buying his own. But there was more than a decade of nothing but cars with various IT company stickers on the roads in Israel, good times, really.
My point here is, really, that until I actually relocated to another country, I was pretty certain that benefit is present everywhere
We look at something similar for housing. We are considering housing benefits for staff to avoid bigger tax penalties for taxable income.
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@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
It's the "no remote" that makes it crappy. Sure, if we didn't allow people to work remotely, then obviously cars would be obvious. But I've been remote since the 1990s. So it's not a good benefit to be given a car, it's an artefact of not being treated as well. Had they let you work remotely, the car would make no sense to them or to you.
Working with crappy dialup isn't fun, and most companies didn't even have the option for remote access back then. But the main reason was that it was cheaper for the companies to lease cars for the employees and claim tax deductible expenses for that, than to report larger gains and pay more tax (taxes are insanely high in Israel). When these cars became a taxable benefit and taxes rose higher and higher every year, it simply stopped making sense for an employee to take a company car instead of buying his own. But there was more than a decade of nothing but cars with various IT company stickers on the roads in Israel, good times, really.
This is simply not true. The cost of lease will always outweigh the amount of taxes paid unless there is a specific unbalanced tax law that gives more credit to the company than the company would pay in those taxes.
Let's use real numbers
Lease costs $3000/yr
Paying taxes on that $3000 of profit instead costs $2500, the company keeps $500 in their pocket.I can't imagine a situation like this (which is what you are claiming)
Lease costs $3000/yr
Paying taxes on that $3000 of profit instead costs $3300 now costing the company $300 from their pocket. -
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@Jimmy9008 said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
Why would you get a car working in IT? When do you need to drive anywhere? I don't even need a car to drive to work, let alone anywhere else.
In Israel, it was a standard benefit for all IT related employees. The idea was that anything in IT is considered a creative job, so if you suddenly have a great idea in the middle of the night, you just drive to the office and get to work on it (no remote jobs back in the 90s). The perk stuck around until it got taxed out of existence in 2007-2010-ish.
I've worked a few MSP jobs in the UK and they usually say you have to use your own car. They do pay for petrol though, so if you have a good efficient car you can make some cash on it.
Why would a car come up? Is it because they were doing bench work? In the US, often you get a company car if you are a bench tech.
No. You had to do regular site visits to see the clients and look at what they wanted you to look at, or do regular face to face 'im doing stuff' type work. All things that could be done remote, but just their business model.
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@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@dyasny said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
@scottalanmiller said in Finally leaving my job, and it's just as annoying as I thought it would be:
It's the "no remote" that makes it crappy. Sure, if we didn't allow people to work remotely, then obviously cars would be obvious. But I've been remote since the 1990s. So it's not a good benefit to be given a car, it's an artefact of not being treated as well. Had they let you work remotely, the car would make no sense to them or to you.
Working with crappy dialup isn't fun, and most companies didn't even have the option for remote access back then. But the main reason was that it was cheaper for the companies to lease cars for the employees and claim tax deductible expenses for that, than to report larger gains and pay more tax (taxes are insanely high in Israel). When these cars became a taxable benefit and taxes rose higher and higher every year, it simply stopped making sense for an employee to take a company car instead of buying his own. But there was more than a decade of nothing but cars with various IT company stickers on the roads in Israel, good times, really.
My point here is, really, that until I actually relocated to another country, I was pretty certain that benefit is present everywhere
We look at something similar for housing. We are considering housing benefits for staff to avoid bigger tax penalties for taxable income.
how does this not related to my above post?
