Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff
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@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
Did you miss the line where I work with AAD on my personal shit? Perhaps I know more than you about O365, AAD, and Microsoft in general?
Working with it on your own stuff would not provide the kinds of information you were claiming. You would know things like "some issues and changes are logged here", but you could not know "that changes could not be made without logging."
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@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
Your external documentation on the O365 and AAD integration. This is also given out in the O365 certification training, which I also possess.
Except we showed that you got it wrong. You said the changes had to be logged there or they could not have happened. Yet the logs didn't show the changes that MS was able to find later. MS admitted that the changes were made officially. So your information about how it works is incorrect.
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@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
If someone isn't declaring who they are and who they work for, go with the most inocculus answer, they're just some random person.
The problem here is that it gives carte blanch to vendors to have official, unannounced reps promote their stuff in very bad ways with no accountability. This is the ProxMox problem that we've seen happen before.
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@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
The vague "they" here is a problem. What makes "someone" at MS more official than the MS employee participating and speaking on their behalf?
What would make someone an official spokesperson on the behalf of any company is an introduction such as:
"Hi I'm Bob from Microsoft, We were introduced to MangoLassi.it and thought it would be a great place to discuss projects, software etc
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
If such a thing has never occurred, any discussion of a someone's place of employment is purely banter and anything ever discussed by said OP is to be taken as any other random person making a post about the color of the grass. . .
Sadly "official" is a purely opinion thing where everyone is free to join and participate from vendors. This is one of the complications of the open contribution system.
The problem here is that because of this, it's useful to have someone come in officially (whatever that means) and attack customers but then claim not to be official only after it blows up in their faces. Since there is no rule about official vs. unofficial, and all people are free to contribute, it does make it very easy to test out different tactics and then associate or disassociate as is practical after the fact.
The vendor gets a win if they fix things, and can claim anything they want if it doesn't.
Official is from the side of the vendor that a person may represent.
That sounds good, but try to define it in real terms. How does a vendor define who can represent them? You need an official representative in the first place.
But in the real world, that's not how things work. Employees of companies represent them. Your cashier represents McDonald's. Your sales person represents AT&T Mobile. Your sales person represents Best Buy. Employees, interacting with the public to influence the public opinion of the company and its products, are paid representatives. "Official" is a very murky term in these cases. It's essentially impossible to define.
Sure your point does have its merits, but even at McDonalds, the "employee" can't walk in with ripped sweat pants and his meat visible to the customers and a blunt in his mouth.
The standards for official for a community such as this one are pretty straight forward, if someone creates a welcome post, states who they are and who they work for. You can safely assume that person was told to represent the interests of that company on this community.
Otherwise you're digging a whole on things that are purely speculative.
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@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
The vague "they" here is a problem. What makes "someone" at MS more official than the MS employee participating and speaking on their behalf?
What would make someone an official spokesperson on the behalf of any company is an introduction such as:
"Hi I'm Bob from Microsoft, We were introduced to MangoLassi.it and thought it would be a great place to discuss projects, software etc
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
If such a thing has never occurred, any discussion of a someone's place of employment is purely banter and anything ever discussed by said OP is to be taken as any other random person making a post about the color of the grass. . .
Sadly "official" is a purely opinion thing where everyone is free to join and participate from vendors. This is one of the complications of the open contribution system.
The problem here is that because of this, it's useful to have someone come in officially (whatever that means) and attack customers but then claim not to be official only after it blows up in their faces. Since there is no rule about official vs. unofficial, and all people are free to contribute, it does make it very easy to test out different tactics and then associate or disassociate as is practical after the fact.
The vendor gets a win if they fix things, and can claim anything they want if it doesn't.
Official is from the side of the vendor that a person may represent.
That sounds good, but try to define it in real terms. How does a vendor define who can represent them? You need an official representative in the first place.
But in the real world, that's not how things work. Employees of companies represent them. Your cashier represents McDonald's. Your sales person represents AT&T Mobile. Your sales person represents Best Buy. Employees, interacting with the public to influence the public opinion of the company and its products, are paid representatives. "Official" is a very murky term in these cases. It's essentially impossible to define.
Sure your point does have its merits, but even at McDonalds, the "employee" can't walk in with ripped sweat pants and his meat visible to the customers and a blunt in his mouth.
Yes, he can. And if McD's management lets him do that, he can continue to do that. He's their representative and if they like what he's representing, they keep him. If they don't like what he's representing, they make him stop.
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@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
The standards for official for a community such as this one are pretty straight forward,...
I'm not sure that that is true. Mostly because very few like this exist for there to be standards. In most communities, to be official you have to pay and bar other contributions. This is not a unique scenario, but an uncommon one.
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@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
If someone isn't declaring who they are and who they work for, go with the most inocculus answer, they're just some random person.
The problem here is that it gives carte blanch to vendors to have official, unannounced reps promote their stuff in very bad ways with no accountability. This is the ProxMox problem that we've seen happen before.
But in those same cases, the posts or accounts from those people will simply get ripped a new one by anyone who reads/has used the solution before.
You can't say "anyone can represent anyone" and then say "it's impossible to know who anyone actually is". Go off of the merits that can be setup, welcome posts, vendor tags etc.
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@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
The vague "they" here is a problem. What makes "someone" at MS more official than the MS employee participating and speaking on their behalf?
What would make someone an official spokesperson on the behalf of any company is an introduction such as:
"Hi I'm Bob from Microsoft, We were introduced to MangoLassi.it and thought it would be a great place to discuss projects, software etc
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "
If such a thing has never occurred, any discussion of a someone's place of employment is purely banter and anything ever discussed by said OP is to be taken as any other random person making a post about the color of the grass. . .
Sadly "official" is a purely opinion thing where everyone is free to join and participate from vendors. This is one of the complications of the open contribution system.
The problem here is that because of this, it's useful to have someone come in officially (whatever that means) and attack customers but then claim not to be official only after it blows up in their faces. Since there is no rule about official vs. unofficial, and all people are free to contribute, it does make it very easy to test out different tactics and then associate or disassociate as is practical after the fact.
The vendor gets a win if they fix things, and can claim anything they want if it doesn't.
Official is from the side of the vendor that a person may represent.
That sounds good, but try to define it in real terms. How does a vendor define who can represent them? You need an official representative in the first place.
But in the real world, that's not how things work. Employees of companies represent them. Your cashier represents McDonald's. Your sales person represents AT&T Mobile. Your sales person represents Best Buy. Employees, interacting with the public to influence the public opinion of the company and its products, are paid representatives. "Official" is a very murky term in these cases. It's essentially impossible to define.
Sure your point does have its merits, but even at McDonalds, the "employee" can't walk in with ripped sweat pants and his meat visible to the customers and a blunt in his mouth.
Yes, he can. And if McD's management lets him do that, he can continue to do that. He's their representative and if they like what he's representing, they keep him. If they don't like what he's representing, they make him stop.
That is my point though, McDonald's wouldn't let their employee show up and do that. Why would you think Microsoft would allow it?
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@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
Did you miss the line where I work with AAD on my personal shit? Perhaps I know more than you about O365, AAD, and Microsoft in general?
Working with it on your own stuff would not provide the kinds of information you were claiming. You would know things like "some issues and changes are logged here", but you could not know "that changes could not be made without logging."
Dude, are you stupid? EVERYTHING GETS LOGGED, it doesn't require a rocket scientist to know this shit.
Again, basic info from O365 training. And knowledge of how it works. Plus I've had people claim this shit, hence I know where to go.
You are projecting and trying to gaslight me on shit you think you know. Knock it off.
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@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
You can safely assume that person was told to represent the interests of that company on this community.
Sure, in that case. But what about people who are simple allowed, or encouraged, to represent a vendor? It's not the paid full time rep that we really think about, it's the casual "let the do what they want and we'll act like we didn't know later if it goes badly" reps that we worry about.
This could be a casual "no one things about it" problem, or in some companies it is coordinated. When I worked in banking they did this for internal customers. They had official people that they could disavow should things go wrong to cover up issues if things went badly. They were very, very official, but not presented as that so that they could claim that they were not "official" after the fact.
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@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
Did you miss the line where I work with AAD on my personal shit? Perhaps I know more than you about O365, AAD, and Microsoft in general?
Working with it on your own stuff would not provide the kinds of information you were claiming. You would know things like "some issues and changes are logged here", but you could not know "that changes could not be made without logging."
Dude, are you stupid? EVERYTHING GETS LOGGED, it doesn't require a rocket scientist to know this shit.
So... you are then claiming that the logs were deleted? Whose the conspiracy theorist?
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@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
Again, basic info from O365 training. And knowledge of how it works. Plus I've had people claim this shit, hence I know where to go.
You are projecting and trying to gaslight me on shit you think you know. Knock it off.
You are claiming that MS conspired and deleted logs now. have you lost your mind? MS is not orchestrating some crazy cover up. They made a simple mistake. It wasn't logged. It took them half a day to track down the issue. They found it and fixed it eventually.
Why does this have to be some big, personal thing? Why do you think your cert trumps reality? Look, either you misunderstand the info in the cert, or the cert is wrong. Period. We are past the point of it "maybe being correct." You got it wrong, you freaked out that it was a conspiracy that you got it wrong. Move on, you don't know AAD like you think you do. Nothing wrong with that, it's not a common system for people to know, and it has the potential of changing at any time as it is a live system. No shame in that. But don't try to pretend that Microsoft is out to get us with some huge planned attack on us with a full cover up and everything. This was a simple mistake, and a relatively simple fix. nothing more. Just because you couldn't diagnose it based on cert training doesn't make it some huge thing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
Did you miss the line where I work with AAD on my personal shit? Perhaps I know more than you about O365, AAD, and Microsoft in general?
Working with it on your own stuff would not provide the kinds of information you were claiming. You would know things like "some issues and changes are logged here", but you could not know "that changes could not be made without logging."
Dude, are you stupid? EVERYTHING GETS LOGGED, it doesn't require a rocket scientist to know this shit.
So... you are then claiming that the logs were deleted? Whose the conspiracy theorist?
It's because your account is a vendor reseller most likely. I've never worked on an account that wasn't bought direct from Microsoft. I don't know where your logs are but they are there.
Hence why I was able to login to my personal account, open my AAD grouping, create the account, add the service, and show you the entry.
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@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
Did you miss the line where I work with AAD on my personal shit? Perhaps I know more than you about O365, AAD, and Microsoft in general?
Working with it on your own stuff would not provide the kinds of information you were claiming. You would know things like "some issues and changes are logged here", but you could not know "that changes could not be made without logging."
Dude, are you stupid? EVERYTHING GETS LOGGED, it doesn't require a rocket scientist to know this shit.
So... you are then claiming that the logs were deleted? Whose the conspiracy theorist?
It's because your account is a vendor reseller most likely.
Maybe that is the likely case, but we are not a reseller and never were.
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@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@dustinb3403 said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
You can safely assume that person was told to represent the interests of that company on this community.
Sure, in that case. But what about people who are simple allowed, or encouraged, to represent a vendor? It's not the paid full time rep that we really think about, it's the casual "let the do what they want and we'll act like we didn't know later if it goes badly" reps that we worry about.
This could be a casual "no one things about it" problem, or in some companies it is coordinated. When I worked in banking they did this for internal customers. They had official people that they could disavow should things go wrong to cover up issues if things went badly. They were very, very official, but not presented as that so that they could claim that they were not "official" after the fact.
Scott, there is no way to address every scenario. On a community such as this @Minion-Queen has the ability to create community guidelines.
If she doesn't want to do that, then fine. Those guidelines can be as simple as, if you were told to come and represent the interests of your company, please announce who you are and why you're here.
We have to simply go off of the "trust fall" experiment that people aren't going to dick around.
Will it happen, of course, we've already seen this. But you're digging into every "what if" scenario without being willing to make concessions on how to address the rather simple "what if" cases.
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@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
I've never worked on an account that wasn't bought direct from Microsoft. I don't know where your logs are but they are there.
It's direct from MS. The logs aren't available to us. Does MS have secret logs? Very possibly. But I don't have access to them I don't think.
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@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
I've never worked on an account that wasn't bought direct from Microsoft. I don't know where your logs are but they are there.
It's direct from MS. The logs aren't available to us. Does MS have secret logs? Very possibly. But I don't have access to them I don't think.
Then you don't have the correct permissions. That's all there is to it.
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@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
Hence why I was able to login to my personal account, open my AAD grouping, create the account, add the service, and show you the entry.
I think you are confusing "it gets logged sometimes" with "all actions are always logged and can't exist without being logged." The logic doesn't flow.
If you hit the gas on the car, it might accelerate. The car might also be turned off and go nowhere. Just because sometimes an action does one thing doesn't guarantee that the same action does the exact same thing in all circumstances. No one questioned that some things that you do yourself get logged, all of my actions are logged in AAD. But this wasn't one of our actions, as you already knew.
I think you are convinced we turned off our own account and are so determined for that to be true that you are willing to go to crazy lengths of log deletions and conspiracy when it's the simplest little mistake on the back end by MS. Not an intentional attack, a mistake. People make those, even MS people.
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@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
Why does this have to be some big, personal thing?
Because you have called into question my integrity, implying shit that is not there.
And it really pisses me off.
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@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@scottalanmiller said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
@psx_defector said in Office 365 Email Gone After Forced Logoff:
I've never worked on an account that wasn't bought direct from Microsoft. I don't know where your logs are but they are there.
It's direct from MS. The logs aren't available to us. Does MS have secret logs? Very possibly. But I don't have access to them I don't think.
Then you don't have the correct permissions. That's all there is to it.
Right, I'm not an MS employee, so I don't have those permissions.
Clearly, you know more about this than MS does who fixed the issue.
