Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?
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@CCWTech said in Can you run a desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinaty Software?:
Finally, the official Hardware Requirements for Avimark specifically mention using a Windows 10 PC (running Desktop Windows, not Server) as being acceptable for a smaller office. So are you suggesting that Avimark's own Hardware Requirements recommend an illegal act?
This is actually something we talk about in IT all the time... how vendors and software companies have no knowledge of, experience with, or responsibility to oversee your licensing and how it is totally the job of any adult to understand when you are talking to a professional or when you are talking to a random person.
Asking a software vendor what your contract with Microsoft says? Why would they know? That's like asking Ford the speed limit on a highway. The cops know the speed limit, Ford knows how to make the car go that fast. Ford isn't responsible for knowing or enforcing some town's speed limit.
Avimark answered honestly... IF you had a license that allowed you to use Windows 11 that way, it will work. They are responsible for the software aspect of that question, their answer has nothing to do with the IT side of things. And outside of the US, there are many countries (Bolivia, for example) where the TOS don't apply and it absolutely makes sense. So it's not a blanket "illegal" question of intentional software piracy.
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Why is it piracy?
Windows Server 2022 and CALs are not a separate product or code base from Windows 11. Windows 11 is a limited use case of Windows 2022 under which you commit to not using the Server 2022 features. The instant you don't do that, you are using a stolen copy of Windows Server and you haven't just started using the server without a license (in production), but also without CALs. So the amount of piracy goes from what seems like a small "misuse of a product under a TOS" to intentional "federal piracy".
One would hope that someone in the veterinary field, having been required to get college educated, would not need a middle school education in following the rules. This isn't hard stuff, at all. Any receptionist could figure this out if they wanted to, that a doctor can't really makes me worried for the poor animals that they don't understand.
Basic ethics, basic English. Nothing technical here. It's a super simple contract that everyone, everywhere is aware of. Lots of people willing to pirate software, but that doesn't mean that they don't understand it.
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@Obsolesce said in Can you run a desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinaty Software?:
@CCWTech seems super clear to me, and always has been:
The most important bit is "only the following features" of which, AviMark, is not one of them. Personal or internal doesn't matter at that point, as it isn't a feature allowed.
The number of devices allowed to use AviMark remotely from it is exactly: zero.
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@CCWTech said in Can you run a desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinaty Software?:
And, again, this is very commonly discussed among experts. Windows 10/11 have a 20 device limit for connections. Clearly, MS had multiple PCs accessing it in mind.
This is like saying that a bank has 10 teller stations so clearly unlimited people are allowed to steal from the vault.
Allowing one type of access in a limited fashion in no way implies something unrelated is also allowed. What kind of logic do they teach at university these days? An eight year old should have no issue with this. It's SO basic.
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If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it but with one caveat: Make sure the hardware has ECC memory to avoid a memory flipped bit error that can wreak havoc and at least a RAID 1 array between two SATA SSDs.
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@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it but with one caveat: Make sure the hardware has ECC memory to avoid a memory flipped bit error that can wreak havoc and at least a RAID 1 array between two SATA SSDs.
It doesn't matter what the product says. What is important is Microsoft's TOS. Can you do it? Sure. Is it legal? No.
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@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it but with one caveat: Make sure the hardware has ECC memory to avoid a memory flipped bit error that can wreak havoc and at least a RAID 1 array between two SATA SSDs.
No, the 20 connection limit ONLY applies to the built-in Windows file and print services. File sharing and printing (leaving out IIS and the others as they don't apply).
That is exactly NOT AVImark Veterinary Software.
What you said to do is undeniable theft.
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@Obsolesce said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it but with one caveat: Make sure the hardware has ECC memory to avoid a memory flipped bit error that can wreak havoc and at least a RAID 1 array between two SATA SSDs.
No, the 20 connection limit ONLY applies to the built-in Windows file and print services. File sharing and printing (leaving out IIS and the others as they don't apply).
That is exactly NOT AVImark Veterinary Software.
What you said to do is undeniable theft.
Remember, ignorance doesn't make you immune to laws etc.
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@scottalanmiller said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
Why is it piracy?
Windows Server 2022 and CALs are not a separate product or code base from Windows 11. Windows 11 is a limited use case of Windows 2022 under which you commit to not using the Server 2022 features.
While I agree this is piracy, I do not agree with you reasoning.
W11 and WinServer2022 are different products because MS said so!!!
They package them with different features and license rights, different brand names....
So they are different products in many imporant aspects: marketing, legal....Volkswagen and Audi cars also have very much in common under the hood, but they are not same products.
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@Mario-Jakovina said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
Volkswagen and Audi cars also have very much in common under the hood, but they are not same products.
If the difference between the two products is in the license and only in the license and it is the license that unlocks the features... they are the same product. VW and Audi by law must be different products, made in different places. They can share a lot, but are different vehicles. Windows 11 and 2022 are literally the same product and the difference is the license.
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@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it
So if a third party says you can steal from a bank, go for it? Because Avimark has zero, literally zero, say in what you can legally do in your contract with Microsoft.
With that logic, why ask Avimark at all, why not ask your aunt or some kid on the street? Why pay for any license for anything, ever? Just ask someone who isn't involved and ask them if it is okay to steal from someone else and if you don't like the answer, ask random people until you get the answer you want.
Why bother asking anyone? Just treat yourself as the third party and ask yourself. Voila.
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@Obsolesce said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
If the product says it can run on Windows 10 or 11 and falls under the 20 connection limit then go for it but with one caveat: Make sure the hardware has ECC memory to avoid a memory flipped bit error that can wreak havoc and at least a RAID 1 array between two SATA SSDs.
No, the 20 connection limit ONLY applies to the built-in Windows file and print services. File sharing and printing (leaving out IIS and the others as they don't apply).
That is exactly NOT AVImark Veterinary Software.
What you said to do is undeniable theft.
More importantly, a third party has no authority to override your agreement with Microsoft.
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@Obsolesce said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@CCWTech seems super clear to me, and always has been:
Seems obvious to me:
We've gone through plenty of audits where QuickBooks has a company file on one PC while there are two or more other PCs accessing that company file. No issues there.
If the app is behaving similarly then there's nothing wrong with the setup being on Windows 10/11. Especially if the vendor indicates that it is appropriate to do so. I'm sure they wouldn't be running afoul of Microsoft's licensing.
EDIT: It's important to define what the word "server" means in this context. It does not mean what we normally use that word for. Think lawyers not IT techs.
EDIT2: Those underlines are very selective. Why was internal missed after personal? That word is also very important along with the words that come after the word "purposes:".
EDIT3: There is a dearth of info on their site about anything product setup/install related. So, post something that shows requirements for their software to run please.
EDIT4: Waaayyyy down in the search results: https://software.covetrus.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/03/AVImark-hardware-specifications.pdf
Looks to be exactly like the QuickBooks setup when used in a tiny operation as indicated here. So, no brainer.
The Server/Client software clearly states a server operating system is required. Again, no brainer.
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@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
We've gone through plenty of audits where QuickBooks has a company file on one PC while there are two or more other PCs accessing that company file. No issues there.
Historically, QuickBooks has only used file sharing for this. The remote users are opening the QuickBooks data file over the network. This matches the restrictions last I knew.
AVImark is connecting to a database server running on the host computer to my understanding. This is not file services, print services, IIS, or ICS.
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@JaredBusch said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
We've gone through plenty of audits where QuickBooks has a company file on one PC while there are two or more other PCs accessing that company file. No issues there.
Historically, QuickBooks has only used file sharing for this. The remote users are opening the QuickBooks data file over the network. This matches the restrictions last I knew.
AVImark is connecting to a database server running on the host computer to my understanding. This is not file services, print services, IIS, or ICS.
I added to my post above.
Their system specifications clarify exactly what their setup is and does. The small setup is peer to peer. No server OS required.
RTFM
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@JaredBusch said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
Historically, QuickBooks has only used file sharing for this. The remote users are opening the QuickBooks data file over the network. This matches the restrictions last I knew.
exactly this.
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@Obsolesce said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@JaredBusch said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
Historically, QuickBooks has only used file sharing for this. The remote users are opening the QuickBooks data file over the network. This matches the restrictions last I knew.
exactly this.
Please reread the Device Restrictions section without all of the underlines especially the part where "internal" is mentioned and "the following purposes:" after that. It's very clear that one can use a Windows Desktop OS for shared internal services. That hasn't changed at all.
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@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@Obsolesce said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@JaredBusch said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
Historically, QuickBooks has only used file sharing for this. The remote users are opening the QuickBooks data file over the network. This matches the restrictions last I knew.
exactly this.
Please reread the Device Restrictions section without all of the underlines especially the part where "internal" is mentioned and "the following purposes:" after that. It's very clear that one can use a Windows Desktop OS for shared internal services. That hasn't changed at all.
By very definition: Peer-to-Peer.
I've been doing this a very long time in the SMB/SME markets. Former SBS MVP and all that.
Tell me a time when any IT tech in those markets hasn't encountered a peer-to-peer setup of desktop operating systems sharing who knows what in a rat's nest of patchwork.
If peer-to-peer wasn't a thing, or illegit as being claimed here, then why did Microsoft have the clause I pointed to included? That is by very definition peer-to-peer.
Again, definitions of words are important here. We can't apply IT Tech definitions to legal definitions. The whole 32-bit memory limitation thing is a good example of that. All y'all know that Windows 32-bit being held down to 4GB of addressable RAM was an arbitrary choice by Microsoft to force-sell their Advanced/Enterprise products that could address more RAM right?
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@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@JaredBusch said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
We've gone through plenty of audits where QuickBooks has a company file on one PC while there are two or more other PCs accessing that company file. No issues there.
Historically, QuickBooks has only used file sharing for this. The remote users are opening the QuickBooks data file over the network. This matches the restrictions last I knew.
AVImark is connecting to a database server running on the host computer to my understanding. This is not file services, print services, IIS, or ICS.
I added to my post above.
Their system specifications clarify exactly what their setup is and does. The small setup is peer to peer. No server OS required.
RTFM
No Manual is going to override MS Licensing.
What AVImark says doesn't matter so discussing it is silly. I could care less what their hardware specs say.
AVImark now requires Guardian to be running which takes it beyond file sharing. End of story.
I have talked to many Microsoft licensing specialists and they agree.
One clinic that believes that they can run Windows desktop with AVImark is the subject of a Microsoft Audit because of that. Yes, I have first-hand knowledge of this. AVImark is not going to pay for their legal defense. I promise you that.
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@PhlipElder said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@Obsolesce said in Can you run a Windows desktop OS as a server to run AVImark Veterinary Software?:
@CCWTech seems super clear to me, and always has been:
Seems obvious to me:
We've gone through plenty of audits where QuickBooks has a company file on one PC while there are two or more other PCs accessing that company file. No issues there.
If the app is behaving similarly then there's nothing wrong with the setup being on Windows 10/11. Especially if the vendor indicates that it is appropriate to do so. I'm sure they wouldn't be running afoul of Microsoft's licensing.
EDIT: It's important to define what the word "server" means in this context. It does not mean what we normally use that word for. Think lawyers not IT techs.
EDIT2: Those underlines are very selective. Why was internal missed after personal? That word is also very important along with the words that come after the word "purposes:".
EDIT3: There is a dearth of info on their site about anything product setup/install related. So, post something that shows requirements for their software to run please.
EDIT4: Waaayyyy down in the search results: https://software.covetrus.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/03/AVImark-hardware-specifications.pdf
Looks to be exactly like the QuickBooks setup when used in a tiny operation as indicated here. So, no brainer.
The Server/Client software clearly states a server operating system is required. Again, no brainer.
First and foremost, it says the following:
You may allow up to 20 other devices to access the software installed on the licensed device solely to use the following software features for personal or internal purposes: file services, print services, Internet information services, and Internet connection sharing and telephony services on the licensed device.
The personal/internal bit matters not.
AVIMark is neither file services nor print services at the core. It's a database. It's server software. Just like you can't put SQL Server on it.
Secondly, it says:
You may allow any number of devices to access the software on the licensed device to synchronize data between devices.
This means, for example, services like Windows Update Delivery Optimization (the built-in P2P stuff), BranchCache, etc.
It does NOT mean "whatever the hell I want to do between devices".It doesn't matter, at all, what AVImark says. What matters is that putting AVImark on Windows 10/11 results in the device being operated as a server (plain and simple):
(v) use the software as server software or to operate the device as a server, except as permitted under Section 2(d)(iii) below; use the software to offer commercial hosting services; make the software available for simultaneous use by more than one user over a network, except as permitted under Section 2(d)(vi) below; install the software on a server for remote access or use over a network; or install the software on a device for use only by remote users;
