Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC
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@Dashrender said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
I wonder how much Apple's ability to change architectures is because of their market penetration, or better said - lack of penetration?
Sure their fans will be pissed they likely have to rebuy their software again for a new chip, but they are such rabid fans, many don't seem to mind. But I think this doesn't matter in general because of the small size of their deployments.
Microsoft has been trying to do this for years - and continuously failing.
Now some if not all of that failing could be because the platform has been slow in comparison to Intel systems, But lack of support for existing software/hardware and HUGE sunk investments I think are what really stop it.When you control the entire hardware and software stack, making these changes is much, much easier.
Microsoft has traditionally failed at this because they have to support every piece of hardware made for the past 10-15 years.
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@black3dynamite said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
Gaming consoles using AMD, apple using there processor. Although very limited we have Dell, HP and Lenovo providing AMD computers too. Pretty interesting.
AMD and Intel both make AMD64 procs, though. This is big, like Apple returning to PowerPC almost. It's back to RISC, just a different RISC family.
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@Dashrender said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@scottalanmiller said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@EddieJennings said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@scottalanmiller
Ah, so they finally announced it.Weve seen this coming for years. I guess Intel's inability to supply chips pushed things forward.
I'm sure it's more than just that.
Apple gets much better pricing on their own foundry work, plus unified with their other product lines. So one code base for all of their products is now possible. That's why we've predicted it for so long.
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@travisdh1 said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
Microsoft has traditionally failed at this because they have to support every piece of hardware made for the past 10-15 years.
And legacy software - Apple just flips their nose at their customers, LOL
I say that last part somewhat in jest, as a complete NON-mac user, I have no knowledge on what was or wasn't needed to be repurchased after the processor changes. -
@scottalanmiller said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@Dashrender said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@scottalanmiller said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@EddieJennings said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@scottalanmiller
Ah, so they finally announced it.Weve seen this coming for years. I guess Intel's inability to supply chips pushed things forward.
I'm sure it's more than just that.
Apple gets much better pricing on their own foundry work, plus unified with their other product lines. So one code base for all of their products is now possible. That's why we've predicted it for so long.
Agreed.
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I've got a buddy who works in Dev Ops who has complaining about this yesterday.
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@RojoLoco said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
I've got a buddy who works in Dev Ops who has complaining about this yesterday.
Complained? Seems really cool to me. Now I kinda want one and I generally dislike Apple products.
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@scottalanmiller said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@RojoLoco said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
I've got a buddy who works in Dev Ops who has complaining about this yesterday.
Complained? Seems really cool to me. Now I kinda want one and I generally dislike Apple products.
His complaints were based on cross platform development woes. He works for Disney+ (well, one of their subsidiaries).
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@RojoLoco said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@scottalanmiller said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@RojoLoco said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
I've got a buddy who works in Dev Ops who has complaining about this yesterday.
Complained? Seems really cool to me. Now I kinda want one and I generally dislike Apple products.
His complaints were based on cross platform development woes. He works for Disney+ (well, one of their subsidiaries).
One would assume they are already developing for iPhone and iPad, so really this will likely simplify the codebase for Apple products.
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@RojoLoco said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@scottalanmiller said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@RojoLoco said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
I've got a buddy who works in Dev Ops who has complaining about this yesterday.
Complained? Seems really cool to me. Now I kinda want one and I generally dislike Apple products.
His complaints were based on cross platform development woes. He works for Disney+ (well, one of their subsidiaries).
Already needed to handle ARM for Android, iOS and RP. This should actually allow for apps across iOS and macOS.
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@Dashrender said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@travisdh1 said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
Microsoft has traditionally failed at this because they have to support every piece of hardware made for the past 10-15 years.
And legacy software - Apple just flips their nose at their customers, LOL
I say that last part somewhat in jest, as a complete NON-mac user, I have no knowledge on what was or wasn't needed to be repurchased after the processor changes.Nonsense. Nothing need to be repurchased, unless software developer wishes to charge you for it. And even then you don't have to, you can stick to using existing software, that's what Rosetta 2 is for. Most software devs will provide universal binaries, like was the case after switch from PowerPC to Intel. And if your software is subscription based, you're covered. Apple showed native ARM MS Office and Adobe applications already, both subscription.
I just wish they had already announced new machines with ARM cpus, my 2012 iMac needs replacement soon. I don't want to invest in obsolete technology.
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@marcinozga said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@Dashrender said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@travisdh1 said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
Microsoft has traditionally failed at this because they have to support every piece of hardware made for the past 10-15 years.
And legacy software - Apple just flips their nose at their customers, LOL
I say that last part somewhat in jest, as a complete NON-mac user, I have no knowledge on what was or wasn't needed to be repurchased after the processor changes.Nonsense. Nothing need to be repurchased, unless software developer wishes to charge you for it. And even then you don't have to, you can stick to using existing software, that's what Rosetta 2 is for. Most software devs will provide universal binaries, like was the case after switch from PowerPC to Intel. And if your software is subscription based, you're covered. Apple showed native ARM MS Office and Adobe applications already, both subscription.
I just wish they had already announced new machines with ARM cpus, my 2012 iMac needs replacement soon. I don't want to invest in obsolete technology.
Yeah, this wasn't a problem 17 years ago, why would today, with subscriptions being the key way that people buy software, would it be assumed to suddenly be an issue?
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@scottalanmiller said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@marcinozga said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@Dashrender said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@travisdh1 said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
Microsoft has traditionally failed at this because they have to support every piece of hardware made for the past 10-15 years.
And legacy software - Apple just flips their nose at their customers, LOL
I say that last part somewhat in jest, as a complete NON-mac user, I have no knowledge on what was or wasn't needed to be repurchased after the processor changes.Nonsense. Nothing need to be repurchased, unless software developer wishes to charge you for it. And even then you don't have to, you can stick to using existing software, that's what Rosetta 2 is for. Most software devs will provide universal binaries, like was the case after switch from PowerPC to Intel. And if your software is subscription based, you're covered. Apple showed native ARM MS Office and Adobe applications already, both subscription.
I just wish they had already announced new machines with ARM cpus, my 2012 iMac needs replacement soon. I don't want to invest in obsolete technology.
Yeah, this wasn't a problem 17 years ago, why would today, with subscriptions being the key way that people buy software, would it be assumed to suddenly be an issue?
There are users out there that avoids upgrading the OS because it will affect their 32bit plugins for a specific app.
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@scottalanmiller said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@marcinozga said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@Dashrender said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
@travisdh1 said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
Microsoft has traditionally failed at this because they have to support every piece of hardware made for the past 10-15 years.
And legacy software - Apple just flips their nose at their customers, LOL
I say that last part somewhat in jest, as a complete NON-mac user, I have no knowledge on what was or wasn't needed to be repurchased after the processor changes.Nonsense. Nothing need to be repurchased, unless software developer wishes to charge you for it. And even then you don't have to, you can stick to using existing software, that's what Rosetta 2 is for. Most software devs will provide universal binaries, like was the case after switch from PowerPC to Intel. And if your software is subscription based, you're covered. Apple showed native ARM MS Office and Adobe applications already, both subscription.
I just wish they had already announced new machines with ARM cpus, my 2012 iMac needs replacement soon. I don't want to invest in obsolete technology.
Yeah, this wasn't a problem 17 years ago, why would today, with subscriptions being the key way that people buy software, would it be assumed to suddenly be an issue?
Where subscriptions a general thing on Macs 17 years ago? I know it wasn't on PC - sure some did exist, but it definitely wasn't the common setup.
But you're both definitely right - the subscription thing does solve a lot of that type of problem. -
@Dashrender said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
Where subscriptions a general thing on Macs 17 years ago? I know it wasn't on PC - sure some did exist, but it definitely wasn't the common setup.
No, but it didn't need to be thanks to backwards compatibility options. Most software just kept running.
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@Dashrender said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
I know it wasn't on PC
Remember, Apple Mac has been the most "PC" of any computer since 2003.
Now, and this drives me absolutely crazy, for the first time in 17 years, the ARM Macs will not be PC again, so all the people incorrectly using PC to refer to something that isn't necessarily PC when Mac is the most PC thing ever made since the original IBM PCs, will suddenly sound correct again.
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PC refers to machines running IA32 and now AMD64 architecture with the PC infrastructure. So the vast majority of Linux and Windows, and all Mac until now.
So phones have not been PCs. Raspberry Pi is not PC. Anything with Power, ARM, Sparc, RISC-V and similar chips are not PC. When Windows runs on AMD64 it is PC, when it runs on ARM it is not.
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@scottalanmiller said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
PC refers to machines running IA32 and now AMD64 architecture with the PC infrastructure. So the vast majority of Linux and Windows, and all Mac until now.
So phones have not been PCs. Raspberry Pi is not PC. Anything with Power, ARM, Sparc, RISC-V and similar chips are not PC. When Windows runs on AMD64 it is PC, when it runs on ARM it is not.
So, it's the CPU architecture that determines whether or not a computer is personal?
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@Obsolesce said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
So, it's the CPU architecture that determines whether or not a computer is personal?
No, it's what determines if it is a PC. IBM PC is an IBM/Intel designed computer architecture that was originally used with CP/M and later other operating systems were written for it. It's the most well known computing architecture standard. While PC standard for Personal Computer, don't confuse it with the more general personal computer. Any computer that is personal is a personal computer, but nothing in being a personal computer implies that it is a PC and nothing in PC actually means it's personal. Every typical server you use is a PC, but the average personal computer is not.
A server is like 95% certain to be a PC today (AMD64 PC architecture) but a personal computer is only like 30% likely to be a PC (because most personal computers are ARM based mobile devices.)
Chromebooks famously come in both PC and non-PC variants.
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@scottalanmiller said in Apple Mac Going to ARM RISC:
So, it's the CPU architecture that determines
It's more than that. You can make an IA16, IA32, or AMD64 CPU based system that is not a PC, but you'd be engineering all your own parts and connections. It's the PC architecture that makes it possible to have interchangeable parts, the PCI bus and stuff like that. So some embedded systems that use those processors opt to not build a PC, but it's rare because once you diverge from PC you generally do so enough that you are stuck writing your own operating system and that's really expensive.
The PC standard is what makes those processors cheap and standard. Pretty much you choose PC first, then you choose which PC compatible processor you want, not the other way around as it would rarely, if ever, make sense. If you dont want PC, you don't likely want an expensive PC focused processor.
