Are All Copies Backups?
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Which is a backup even a backup if it's not confirmed that the cat is alive? IE If you can't restore from your "backup" does it qualify as being a backup at all or just a failed attempt at a backup?
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@Dashrender said:
I tend to agree with the intent thinking here Scott - and even though I was using the term backup in that other thread, I currently lack a more accurate term. Additionally, the primary source of a data piece vs the backup or a synced copy would depend upon which is the one in use at the moment.
Phones bring two things to easy conversation - photos and contacts.
With photos we primarily consider them static, once they are taken they don't change, they just get copied around from device to device.
So we take a picture on our phone, it saves to the local storage. When the phone has a network connection it copies that picture to the cloud storage. At which point does the local picture change from being the primary to being the backup?
Now contacts. Contacts primary source is dependent upon where they are being edited at the time. A new blank phone would be the backup/synced copy of Exchange's contact list. But once you edit a contact on the phone, which is done entirely locally first - that is now the primary, at least until it's sync'ed back to Exchange.
It is a lot of semantics.
Just because it is edited locally does not make that the primary, IMHO. For example, do you feel that MangoLassi's primary database is the one that GroveSocial hosts or the one running inside your browser, making ML a multi-master system.
In case you are wondering, ML creates a NoSQL database in memory in your browser and your changes all go there first before syncing up to the main MongoDB system. Like contacts on your phone before going to Exchange.
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@DustinB3403 said:
Which is a backup even a backup if it's not confirmed that the cat is alive? IE If you can't restore from your "backup" does it qualify as being a backup at all or just a failed attempt at a backup?
All systems fail. When the government demands that you maintain a backup, they do not require that it be successful. You need something that you can say "yes we have a backup." If the term isn't backup, then would need a new one and when could you use the term "backup"?
For example, if you require absolute success for backup to be the term, then you can never tell someone to take a backup or say that you have a backup or that you retain backups. While I understand your point, is a backup that might not work really a backup, it would make the term effectively unusable.
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@scottalanmiller Well Scott would you take more then a second thought at a failed backup as being usable, or simply say "you have no backup because it's unusable."
The backup process failed, if it's unusable, so you have to create another backup, and test the backup.
Once you have a successful backup, that can be used to restore from, then you have a backup.
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It's the intent of "I have something to revert to or recover with should something go south." Not "Oh I made this so I'm in good shape without testing it"
That is just being blind about the entire situation and the goal, you need to confirm that the backup "works" otherwise what's the point if you have no way to recover?
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@DustinB3403 said:
It's the intent of "I have something to revert to or recover with should something go south." Not "Oh I made this so I'm in good shape without testing it"
That is just being blind about the entire situation and the goal, you need to confirm that the backup "works" otherwise what's the point if you have no way to recover?
I definitely see where you are going with this, but there are situations where testing every backup is just not feasible. You do random tests on backups, but you don't test every single one - are you saying the non tested backups aren't backups? What about tested backups that are on media where the media fails after the test? Is that still a backup ? I think so.
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@Dashrender My point is, you're building a backup for a purpose, and to ensure that the backup works, you test it.
That is what makes it a backup.
Sporadic testing, is still testing. But if you have a single "backup" that is broken and just doesn't work it's not a backup, because you can't recover from it.
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@DustinB3403 said:
That is what makes it a backup.
nooo... is it smart to test it? yes, but I don't agree that testing is intrinsic to it being a backup.
It's like Scott's earlier post
@scottalanmiller said:
I'd not go so far as to quantify reliability in the definition. Intent is black or white. Either you intend to retain or you don't intend to retain. You could add a third possibility... you intend to retain, you don't intend to retain or you intend not to retain.
Your testing requirement is the same as the reliability quantification that NattNatt was looking to add.
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Now I will add - if your backup process fails - then you clearly Don't have a backup. But if the process claims that it is successful, well then I say generically you do have a backup, wither it's reliable/usable isn't known until you try using it.
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@Dashrender said:
So we take a picture on our phone, it saves to the local storage. When the phone has a network connection it copies that picture to the cloud storage. At which point does the local picture change from being the primary to being the backup?
I say when it hits the cloud. Because the cloud is your storage. And the cloud provider has a backup. (As @scottalanmiller often says WE are the IT user in that case, not the IT Admin. That is the job of the cloud provider.) The copy on your phone is just synced, must the same as your contacts.
Me? I like a little more granular control over my data than just hoping the cloud provider can get it back. Even Apple recommends downloading your library somewhere other than iCloud.
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@Dashrender But why would the process reportedly succeed, but still not work. If it doesn't work, you have nothing but wasted resources.
You have no backup at that point.
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@BRRABill said:
Me? I like a little more granular control over my data than just hoping the cloud provider can get it back. Even Apple recommends downloading your library somewhere other than iCloud.
LOL even they don't trust their ability to restore your data. iCloud isn't O365. Hell OneDrive isn't O365. I wouldn't expect either service to have any onus toward recoverability of my data unless it's specifically in their TOS.
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@Dashrender said:
LOL even they don't trust their ability to restore your data. iCloud isn't O365. Hell OneDrive isn't O365. I wouldn't expect either service to have any onus toward recoverability of my data unless it's specifically in their TOS.
Considering my recent (and andgoing) issue with iCloud, I am starting to get a little nervous.
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TL:DR rest of thread:
A copy is a copy,.. I can have 30 copies of a document,... but the one I'm working on could get lost or damaged. But I haven't copied back to the other 29 locations,.. so I've lost hours of work.
A back up - a true back up looks at the original.. Better to have 20 backups theAn 20 copies.
And a good back up is only as valid as the last tested restore.
Yes @NattNatt ----thAn; speed typing... smh
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@gjacobse "Better to have 20 backups Than 20 copies" I assume you mean?
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I think of copies and backups like this: a backup is a conscious effort to protect your data, while a copy is just a duplicate of your data. Backups are most likely run on a regular schedule, and offer some way to easily restore the data when needed, as well as check to make sure that they're working correctly..You may be diligent enough to copy your files after each change, but most likely,you're not. If you don't make a new copy with each change, or even once daily, how useful is a copy if you need to restore from it? Also, how do you check to ensure that the copy hasn't been corrupted?
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So this is computer existentialism?
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I think you're getting two separate things mixed up needlessly.
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Intentional backups / backup strategy
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Potential sources of data to recover from
Bottom line, if you're in a position to need to recover stuff it makes lots of sense to look at both 1 and 2. Should you depend on 2? Hell no, that's the whole point of 1.
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To me.
A Backup is a read only copy that can not be alterted.. Otherwise it's living data, And you can not verify the data has not changed/added or removed since the backup was taken.
