@jaredbusch said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@jaredbusch said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@jaredbusch said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@thwr said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

I am currently learning VB6 from a 1998 textbook...

You could talk to a tree for the same effect Not a good idea to start with VB when you want to learn programming

Not starting to learning programming, just need to also work with our legacy code

That's the problem with VB, it's all for ancient "we can't update it" code. VB was okay through around 1999, but never in the .NET era. So any legacy code made with it is pretty much guaranteed to have originated from a "developer" that was just mucking about and couldn't adapt to a more modern language and was carrying over bad VB habits from the 90s; and then a company that never updated code for close to twenty years now.

2 years left on the roadmap to have migrated all of our legacy code. It's a lot of work when you have a whole LoB application originally created in VB6.

The last one of these, I worked on went live in 2011. It was a horrid VB6 + Access database backend.

Thankfully it stopped using Access 7 years ago.

What is it using now?

MS SQL

I had assumed they didn't consider any other options, but I found some documentation the other day that showed they did consider other options.

It can be a nasty surprise for our smaller clients when they hit the 10GB limit for SQL express.

Wow, WTF is your product that you are hitting 10GB database sizes?

I mean it is easy to hit for some things. But anyone trying to stick that kind or stuff in a DB will not care about the cost of licensing SQL most of the time.

Not to say it was the best choice, just saying.

I don't find that to often be the case. MS SQL Server is so expensive, I don't know any company that doesn't notice the cost. Even small installs are often $50K. You have to be insanely big to not care about losing $50K and having to pay for the overseeing of licenses.

You obviously have no real world frame of reference for your ranting.

I know many SMB with paid SQL server instances, and not a one spent ever $10k, let alone $50k.

Depends on who is taking on the cost of administering the database. Technically, our clients are fully responsible for their own database administration, however we provide service for no charge, so we're actually absorbing that cost in order to make their costs lower. However, that also means no one is monitoring the database and there is no SLA in place for if there are are issues with their database.

@jaredbusch said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@jaredbusch said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@thwr said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

I am currently learning VB6 from a 1998 textbook...

You could talk to a tree for the same effect Not a good idea to start with VB when you want to learn programming

Not starting to learning programming, just need to also work with our legacy code

That's the problem with VB, it's all for ancient "we can't update it" code. VB was okay through around 1999, but never in the .NET era. So any legacy code made with it is pretty much guaranteed to have originated from a "developer" that was just mucking about and couldn't adapt to a more modern language and was carrying over bad VB habits from the 90s; and then a company that never updated code for close to twenty years now.

2 years left on the roadmap to have migrated all of our legacy code. It's a lot of work when you have a whole LoB application originally created in VB6.

The last one of these, I worked on went live in 2011. It was a horrid VB6 + Access database backend.

Thankfully it stopped using Access 7 years ago.

What is it using now?

MS SQL

I had assumed they didn't consider any other options, but I found some documentation the other day that showed they did consider other options.

It can be a nasty surprise for our smaller clients when they hit the 10GB limit for SQL express.

Wow, WTF is your product that you are hitting 10GB database sizes?

I mean it is easy to hit for some things. But anyone trying to stick that kind or stuff in a DB will not care about the cost of licensing SQL most of the time.

Not to say it was the best choice, just saying.

It's a niche market LoB application that covers the bulk of what our clients need to do on a computer. So that means CRM features, email client, even a word processor.

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@jaredbusch said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@thwr said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

I am currently learning VB6 from a 1998 textbook...

You could talk to a tree for the same effect Not a good idea to start with VB when you want to learn programming

Not starting to learning programming, just need to also work with our legacy code

That's the problem with VB, it's all for ancient "we can't update it" code. VB was okay through around 1999, but never in the .NET era. So any legacy code made with it is pretty much guaranteed to have originated from a "developer" that was just mucking about and couldn't adapt to a more modern language and was carrying over bad VB habits from the 90s; and then a company that never updated code for close to twenty years now.

2 years left on the roadmap to have migrated all of our legacy code. It's a lot of work when you have a whole LoB application originally created in VB6.

The last one of these, I worked on went live in 2011. It was a horrid VB6 + Access database backend.

Thankfully it stopped using Access 7 years ago.

What is it using now?

MS SQL

I had assumed they didn't consider any other options, but I found some documentation the other day that showed they did consider other options.

It can be a nasty surprise for our smaller clients when they hit the 10GB limit for SQL express.

They considered them and STILL took that one? What did they consider and why did they choose it?

I don't know what all options they were looking at, but I do know that some of our integration partners freaked out at the thought of us using something open source. I doubt that would happen now though.

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@jaredbusch said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@thwr said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

I am currently learning VB6 from a 1998 textbook...

You could talk to a tree for the same effect Not a good idea to start with VB when you want to learn programming

Not starting to learning programming, just need to also work with our legacy code

That's the problem with VB, it's all for ancient "we can't update it" code. VB was okay through around 1999, but never in the .NET era. So any legacy code made with it is pretty much guaranteed to have originated from a "developer" that was just mucking about and couldn't adapt to a more modern language and was carrying over bad VB habits from the 90s; and then a company that never updated code for close to twenty years now.

2 years left on the roadmap to have migrated all of our legacy code. It's a lot of work when you have a whole LoB application originally created in VB6.

The last one of these, I worked on went live in 2011. It was a horrid VB6 + Access database backend.

Thankfully it stopped using Access 7 years ago.

What is it using now?

MS SQL

I had assumed they didn't consider any other options, but I found some documentation the other day that showed they did consider other options.

It can be a nasty surprise for our smaller clients when they hit the 10GB limit for SQL express.

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@thwr said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

I am currently learning VB6 from a 1998 textbook...

You could talk to a tree for the same effect Not a good idea to start with VB when you want to learn programming

Not starting to learning programming, just need to also work with our legacy code

That's the problem with VB, it's all for ancient "we can't update it" code. VB was okay through around 1999, but never in the .NET era. So any legacy code made with it is pretty much guaranteed to have originated from a "developer" that was just mucking about and couldn't adapt to a more modern language and was carrying over bad VB habits from the 90s; and then a company that never updated code for close to twenty years now.

2 years left on the roadmap to have migrated all of our legacy code. It's a lot of work when you have a whole LoB application originally created in VB6.

Wiat, you are REALLY doing VB6 with a book from 1998? I thought that you were kidding about that, lol. I figured you just were working on late VB.NET code and being silly with the VB6 thing. Damn.

No joke, our main executable is still VB6, and quite a few of our libraries. We have a couple libraries in VB.NET, but C# is what we use for anything new.

That's crazy. What a pain that must be to support. We were lucky, we did our big app in VB6 in the 90s, but were almost all to C# by 2002.

It is a pain, most of our problems come from the VB6 code. Also means that Devs sometimes need support since updated .Net libraries will sometimes break the integrations on their system.

@jaredbusch said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@thwr said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

I am currently learning VB6 from a 1998 textbook...

You could talk to a tree for the same effect Not a good idea to start with VB when you want to learn programming

Not starting to learning programming, just need to also work with our legacy code

That's the problem with VB, it's all for ancient "we can't update it" code. VB was okay through around 1999, but never in the .NET era. So any legacy code made with it is pretty much guaranteed to have originated from a "developer" that was just mucking about and couldn't adapt to a more modern language and was carrying over bad VB habits from the 90s; and then a company that never updated code for close to twenty years now.

2 years left on the roadmap to have migrated all of our legacy code. It's a lot of work when you have a whole LoB application originally created in VB6.

The last one of these, I worked on went live in 2011. It was a horrid VB6 + Access database backend.

Thankfully it stopped using Access 7 years ago.

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@thwr said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

I am currently learning VB6 from a 1998 textbook...

You could talk to a tree for the same effect Not a good idea to start with VB when you want to learn programming

Not starting to learning programming, just need to also work with our legacy code

That's the problem with VB, it's all for ancient "we can't update it" code. VB was okay through around 1999, but never in the .NET era. So any legacy code made with it is pretty much guaranteed to have originated from a "developer" that was just mucking about and couldn't adapt to a more modern language and was carrying over bad VB habits from the 90s; and then a company that never updated code for close to twenty years now.

2 years left on the roadmap to have migrated all of our legacy code. It's a lot of work when you have a whole LoB application originally created in VB6.

Wiat, you are REALLY doing VB6 with a book from 1998? I thought that you were kidding about that, lol. I figured you just were working on late VB.NET code and being silly with the VB6 thing. Damn.

No joke, our main executable is still VB6, and quite a few of our libraries. We have a couple libraries in VB.NET, but C# is what we use for anything new.

@scottalanmiller said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@thwr said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

I am currently learning VB6 from a 1998 textbook...

You could talk to a tree for the same effect Not a good idea to start with VB when you want to learn programming

Not starting to learning programming, just need to also work with our legacy code

That's the problem with VB, it's all for ancient "we can't update it" code. VB was okay through around 1999, but never in the .NET era. So any legacy code made with it is pretty much guaranteed to have originated from a "developer" that was just mucking about and couldn't adapt to a more modern language and was carrying over bad VB habits from the 90s; and then a company that never updated code for close to twenty years now.

2 years left on the roadmap to have migrated all of our legacy code. It's a lot of work when you have a whole LoB application originally created in VB6.

@thwr said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

@flaxking said in IS BASIC programming still in vogue?:

I am currently learning VB6 from a 1998 textbook...

You could talk to a tree for the same effect Not a good idea to start with VB when you want to learn programming

Not starting to learning programming, just need to also work with our legacy code

I am currently learning VB6 from a 1998 textbook...

@thwr said in Disk imaging tools:

@nadnerb said in Disk imaging tools:

Macrium Reflect

Ah, thank you. Macrium Reflect was the product I couldn't remember. It worked very well for someone I knew when he was in a similar situation.

Anyway, I will probably use clonezilla again

+1 one for Macrium Reflect as the best easy way to go about it (I've had some unsuccessful Clonezilla attempts before). In my experience with Acronis, you can't cherry pick partitions (like the OEM recovery partition) at clone time, but you can with Macrium Reflect.

@scottalanmiller said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:

@stacksofplates said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:

I could take it or leave it. I think they have some cool projects like Juju. The only problem I’ve had with it really is the boot partition filling up with images. I’m so used to how RHEL deals with that I forget about it.

OMG that is such a pain!!

I agree

It specially mentions CM, so how about managing the state of the computer so that it you know if it is no longer in compliance?

@matteo-nunziati said in Do we dislike Ubuntu:

I'm quite opposite: when developping stuff I really like to reduce the amount of maintanance of the OS. Of course too old is something I don't like, therefore I find a good balance by using ubuntu LTS and recently I've done a short test on opensuse leap too.

I find it more work because the tools I want to use require newer versions of packages

Anyone using this LDAP external pillar?

https://docs.saltstack.com/en/latest/ref/pillar/all/salt.pillar.pillar_ldap.html

It sounds interesting, I would like to give it a go one of these days to see if it solves the user management problems with managing users with Salt

@tim_g said in Opinions: Ansible vs. SaltStack:

I found a more up to date (march of 2017) article doing a good SaltStack vs Ansible comparison.

https://www.upguard.com/articles/saltstack-vs-ansible-revisited

I didn't find this article particularly useful.

@scottalanmiller said in Small Restaurant Network Redesign:

@tim_g said in Small Restaurant Network Redesign:

I'm not sure I'd do it, though, just doing the RDP with port locking seems like it might be better.

Remote Utilities has an RDP mode and is free for commercial use for up to 10 computers.

We can look at DevOps as an extension of Lean manufacturing, with extras added like the Toyota Kata, and modifications made in order to make with work better and make sense to software development.

It is a great case study of how to successfully apply Lean to a different industry, and a great many things can be taken from it in order to apply to other industries.

For example, I know of a botched implementation of applying Lean to healthcare, and I believe if a DevOps style route was taken, it would be more successful. DevOps isn't applying straight Lean itself but making modifications where it makes sense, and I think a lot of the modifications made by DevOps would make sense to other industries.

There is "Lean IT", but I would be wary of applying it without doing some studying on DevOps first, since I view DevOps as the gold standard of how to apply Lean to your industry (aside from the whole buzzword confusion)

@scottalanmiller said in will Devops kick out System admins ?? !!!:

@tim_g said in will Devops kick out System admins ?? !!!:

However, as a buzzword I think it's referred to more as a relationship between Developers and IT... not IT doing developer-like work (like coding)... but it does involve scripting / automation.

I can't figure out how often that is true. There is one camp that has the two merged, this comes from the 1960s and is nothing new at all. The other is the Infrastructure as Code crew. People seem to randomly mean either one or the other at any particular time and there is no way to tell which is which.

Merging dev and ops is really silly, two very different disciplines that split for key reasons. But IT using everything at their disposal to do advanced IT is very sensible.

At my job I am both Senior Ops and Junior Dev. Two separate roles, I even have two separate workstation VMs. Sometimes I'm doing Dev work, sometimes I am doing Ops work. The only way this is itself is related to DevOps is that if I have to do some Dev to support my Ops, there is less handoffs. Reducing the number of handoffs is a big thing in DevOps, and thus some companies will employ people with experience in both as a part of their DevOps strategy, but it is not what DevOps means.

@jaredbusch said in will Devops kick out System admins ?? !!!:

@flaxking said in will Devops kick out System admins ?? !!!:

@scottalanmiller is actually talking about more part of the practical implementation of DevOps, rather than what DevOps is.

One way of looking at DevOps is Developers and Operations working together to accomplish the goals that actually help the business as a whole, rather than accomplishing their own separate goals - which can conflict and end up not actually providing value to the business.

Part of the definition of DevOps is that it is also for infrastructure management. That is the part of the definition that is being discussed when people through the term around like they through around "cloud".

Saying that DevOps is "for infrastructure management" doesn't really make sense. DevOps implies infrastructure management. In DevOps, infrastructure has to be managed in such a way that helps meet the goals of DevOps. However, in some situations it would be possible to follow DevOps using 'snowflake' servers.

When people pass around DevOps as a buzzword, they aren't actually talking about DevOps itself, just the way DevOps has typically been practically implemented. And it's hard not to talk about that, because following thee beaten path is the easiest way to get started with DevOps, but if you never look at the big picture of what it actually is you are trying to accomplish a lot is being missed out on.