Firmware Updates Hit Surface Pro 3 and Surface 3
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
MS was the first consumer branded to try to make apps work universally across all devices in their ecosystem.
hell Apple still isn't trying to do that.
What do you mean? Android and iOS have had this since day one. Apple isn't "trying" because they've always had it.
Android doesn't run on the desktop (well it does now). and iOS apps don't run on OSX, and OSX apps don't run on iOS.
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@Dashrender said:
Android doesn't run on the desktop (well it does now). and iOS apps don't run on OSX, and OSX apps don't run on iOS.
Sure they do. There are two types of apps for each. On iOS there are Obj-C/Swift apps and there are HTML5 apps. On Android there are Java and HTML5 apps. Theyve both always supported HTML5 apps.
Windows just copied this and did not provide another option for their "universal apps." They've done a clever marketing trick to make you think that they did something good instead of just failing horribly, like they actually did. Their product does LESS, not more, and you see it as a success. But it is not, it is late to the party and not doing anything that everyone else hasn't offered all along.
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@Dashrender said:
and iOS apps don't run on OSX, and OSX apps don't run on iOS.
If they use HTML5 they do.
Same limitation that Windows has.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
and iOS apps don't run on OSX, and OSX apps don't run on iOS.
If they use HTML5 they do.
Same limitation that Windows has.
But MS is trying to change - they are making the move to HTML5 apps, Apple does not appear to be doing so (or rather, they are not advertising this functionality).
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Android doesn't run on the desktop (well it does now). and iOS apps don't run on OSX, and OSX apps don't run on iOS.
Sure they do. There are two types of apps for each. On iOS there are Obj-C/Swift apps and there are HTML5 apps. On Android there are Java and HTML5 apps. Theyve both always supported HTML5 apps.
OK Fine, Android has always supported this - great - but so what? Until recently there was not desktop android, so there was only a mobile platform.
It's true that Android is now venturing into the desktop zone (frankly Chrome OS makes no sense when you have Android that is positioned to do it all already) and as such their apps will run universally everywhere. But it's still not common.
But then Windows phone has nearly zero market.. so you could say the same about MS, it's not common. They each control one portion of the market.. and clearly Android is the leader right now.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
and iOS apps don't run on OSX, and OSX apps don't run on iOS.
If they use HTML5 they do.
Same limitation that Windows has.
But MS is trying to change - they are making the move to HTML5 apps, Apple does not appear to be doing so (or rather, they are not advertising this functionality).
But everyone has known about it for nearly a decade. Seems like a silly thing to advertise. MS has done nothing here. They are just way behind. What has MS done to "move in that direction?" Outside of playing crazy catchup with literally everyone else.
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@Dashrender said:
OK Fine, Android has always supported this - great - but so what? Until recently there was not desktop android, so there was only a mobile platform.
You are working HARD to come up with a reason that MS isn't behind. I mean really, it's this simple... everyone has had this since day one except MS. Done, end of story.
If you really want to understand the scope...
You treat iOS and OSX as merged but you don't say that iOS doesn't run on a desktop but Android you expect to, why?
Android apps written in the "universal" way run on Linux desktops, Mac desktops, Chromebooks, etc. Same as with any other system. Android has always been allowed on desktops as well, just wasn't popular.
That Android didn't sell desktops is completely outside the conversation. The point is that they had universal apps to ANY desktop before MS was ready to even go down this road.
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@Dashrender said:
It's true that Android is now venturing into the desktop zone (frankly Chrome OS makes no sense when you have Android that is positioned to do it all already) and as such their apps will run universally everywhere. But it's still not common.
Funny, because ChomeOS is Androids' answer to exactly what you have been praising Windows for... ChromeOS is the Android desktop that is limited to "only the universal apps." The very thing that you are touting from MS and praising them for being "first" in. You love it with WIndows and think that it is silly with Linux. Why the dichotomy?
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I never said MS wasn't behind. They are. Sure, but they are trying to catch up, modernize.
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@Dashrender said:
I never said MS wasn't behind. They are. Sure, but they are trying to catch up, modernize.
You said that they were first. That is what we have been discussing.
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@Dashrender said:
MS was the first consumer branded to try to make apps work universally across all devices in their ecosystem.
This statement is what we've been discussing.
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And my point was that they were not the first, they were the last. They were the only one that saved it until now... and they waited so long to do it that apparently people forgot that it was a problem that only they ever had.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
OK Fine, Android has always supported this - great - but so what? Until recently there was not desktop android, so there was only a mobile platform.
You are working HARD to come up with a reason that MS isn't behind. I mean really, it's this simple... everyone has had this since day one except MS. Done, end of story.
If you really want to understand the scope...
You treat iOS and OSX as merged but you don't say that iOS doesn't run on a desktop but Android you expect to, why?
I treaded iOS and OSX as merged? I don't think so - they are completely different things - they require two different kinds of applications, well maybe they don't. maybe HTML 5 will run on both platforms, but they don't promote that, they don't have apps on both platforms that I'm aware of (single app with two front ends, one for OSX and one for iOS). If you know of one, I'll stand corrected. and don't mention some webpage thing either - that's a webpage running on a server on the internet, it's not an app.
Android apps written in the "universal" way run on Linux desktops, Mac desktops, Chromebooks, etc. Same as with any other system. Android has always been allowed on desktops as well, just wasn't popular.
Maybe Android did have universal apps to run on any platform, but they don't! I don't know of a single Android app that runs on all platforms.
That Android didn't sell desktops is completely outside the conversation. The point is that they had universal apps to ANY desktop before MS was ready to even go down this road.
It is poignant to the conversation because I was looking for a universal solution to all use cases - mainly mobile (phone/phablet/tablet) and desktop/laptop.
Now you might still say that it's not because Android apps have always been written platform agnostic and as such can run anywhere - but then I ask you, how can I run my Android apps on my desktop (yeah I know there are emulators that let me run Android apps on my Windows machine now) - but who wants that? We want apps that run native without an emulator (or at least the emulator has to be completely transparent like running Java apps. -
@Dashrender said:
You treat iOS and OSX as merged but you don't say that iOS doesn't run on a desktop but Android you expect to, why?
I treaded iOS and OSX as merged? I don't think so - they are completely different things - they require two different kinds of applications, well maybe they don't. maybe HTML 5 will run on both platforms, but they don't promote that, they don't have apps on both platforms that I'm aware of (single app with two front ends, one for OSX and one for iOS). If you know of one, I'll stand corrected. and don't mention some webpage thing either - that's a webpage running on a server on the internet, it's not an app.
You treat them as a "pair", but you act like Android itself has to be sold on desktops to have a desktop, but it has Linux, ChromeOS and even Mac or Windows for its desktop. That was my point.
Apple used to promote this, it's so old that no one talks about it anymore.
Um ALL of them are webpages. That's how ALL universal on Windows works.
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@Dashrender said:
Maybe Android did have universal apps to run on any platform, but they don't! I don't know of a single Android app that runs on all platforms.
Kids make them for classes all of the time. They are not that popular with developers for whatever reason, but they certainly have them and always have. Just because the ones that you use choose not to offer that does not imply in any way that the platform has not always had it.
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@scottalanmiller said:
And my point was that they were not the first, they were the last. They were the only one that saved it until now... and they waited so long to do it that apparently people forgot that it was a problem that only they ever had.
Please quote the post where I said MS was first. I can't seem to find it so I can correct it.
Of course MS wasn't the first to do or try this. But they, unlike anyone else, are advertising this - and while I know that you like dedicated devices for dedicate purposes, I like having my apps everywhere, all the time, even if I rarely use them on a given platform.
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@Dashrender said:
Now you might still say that it's not because Android apps have always been written platform agnostic and as such can run anywhere - but then I ask you, how can I run my Android apps on my desktop
What you are missing is that you have to CHOOSE to write them that way. People don't choose to do so.
Why doesn't Word run on my non-full desktop? Because Windows isn't universal. There is a special "universal" platform - Microsoft code name for a web app.
You are using dual values in each case. You are praising Windows and their "web apps run everywhere" platform then says "don't tell me web apps" when it comes to other platforms.
They are all one and the same. HTML5 apps are what Windows calls universal. The only difference is marketing. iOS and Android are being transparent, Windows is pulling the wool over. In all cases things are exactly the same... there are native and web apps. The web apps are universal and the native are not. Windows was last to this game.
That's all that there is.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
MS was the first consumer branded to try to make apps work universally across all devices in their ecosystem.
This statement is what we've been discussing.
This one, that I've already quoted for you
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
You treat iOS and OSX as merged but you don't say that iOS doesn't run on a desktop but Android you expect to, why?
I treaded iOS and OSX as merged? I don't think so - they are completely different things - they require two different kinds of applications, well maybe they don't. maybe HTML 5 will run on both platforms, but they don't promote that, they don't have apps on both platforms that I'm aware of (single app with two front ends, one for OSX and one for iOS). If you know of one, I'll stand corrected. and don't mention some webpage thing either - that's a webpage running on a server on the internet, it's not an app.
You treat them as a "pair", but you act like Android itself has to be sold on desktops to have a desktop, but it has Linux, ChromeOS and even Mac or Windows for its desktop. That was my point.
OK I'll give you that - but please again, where can I run those Android apps? tell me how I run a APK on a Chomebook?
Apple used to promote this, it's so old that no one talks about it anymore.
They did?
Um ALL of them are webpages. That's how ALL universal on Windows works.
The locally installed app maybe be a webpage, but it's all local - but you can't take an iOS app and simply run it on OSX -can you?
You can't take an Android app and just run it on Windows, on Linux, on ChromeOS, can you? with nothing more needed? no emulators, etc. it just works?
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@Dashrender said:
Of course MS wasn't the first to do or try this. But they, unlike anyone else, are advertising this - and while I know that you like dedicated devices for dedicate purposes, I like having my apps everywhere, all the time, even if I rarely use them on a given platform.
Everyone advertised it. It's so old that it would be embarrassing to keep pushing it like this is 2008 or something. Only in the Windows world are people feeling like this is new or something. This is old hat to the rest of us. I was studying how they were doing this when I still lived in Geneseo - sold that house in 2007. That Microsoft is pushing it shows just how far behind they are, nothing more.
Are web apps a good idea? Yes, they are great. Is making them the only option good? Not likely. Do people like using them? Not very much. Has Microsoft done anything here except gamble that their customers won't point and laugh at the emperor's new clothes? No.
