RAID Controllers - Stupidly Expensive for what they are
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@DustinB3403 said:
It all results in the same end if something happens to the systems running the RAID.
Sort of but not really. Both are software RAID but one is specifically a non-business class use of it.
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@DustinB3403 said:
So here are the descriptions for the 3 kinds of RAID, Software, Fake, and Hardware... RAID Defined I specifically meant companies who opt Motherboard RAID's so therefore Fake RAID by design.
That description is incorrect. FakeRAID is any software RAID pretending to be hardware for the purpose of tricking consumers. He associates a lot of stuff with FakeRAID that isn't specifically true. FakeRAID is always bad but is just one bad sub category of software RAID. But enterprise software RAID and FakeRAID are polar opposites.
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@DustinB3403 said:
It all results in the same end if something happens to the systems running the RAID.
Definitely not true. The results are quite different.
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@DustinB3403 said:
Not third party software which controls RAID outside of BIOS.
FakeRAID's name comes from the fact that it looks like it is in the BIOS but isn't. All FakeRAID is outside of the BIOS. If the BIOS actually had the RAID it would be hardware RAID. The Fake term means that it looks like that is where it is but the end users have been tricked. The RAID is real, it is the hardware that is fake.
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@DustinB3403 said:
So for what a RAID Controller is, why the crap are they so expensive, $200 to $600 for a RAID Controller is just insane.
Let's start by defining what a normal hardware RAID controller is so that we have a basis for starting the description and explanation.
Hardware RAID Controllers are, or are almost always:
- Specialized, full computers
- Use expensive RISC processors
- Need their own memory
- Require specialized firmware
- Include enterprise support contracts (same day, four hours, etc.)
- Is produced at relatively low volume
- Must be insanely reliable
Now given that, I don't feel that there is any concern around the price. Getting a custom built, custom firmware, enterprise supported RISC computer for $600 doesn't sound expensive in the least.
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Let's compare to the closest non-enterprise analogue of RAID cards, the graphics card. RAID Cards and GPUs are both specialized processing offload engines. They provide extremely similar roles. Each has its own processor, memory, language, tools, physical board, etc. GPUs have a bigger price range, $100 - $1,500 or so and are sometimes bought in groups for things like SLI so actually can get pretty crazy compared to RAID cards typically.
GPUs definitely push the envelopes of power in a way that RAID cards do not, but they also do so at massively higher production volumes, higher markup, lower reliability and without the huge cost of enterprise support which accounts for at least 50% of the cost of a RAID card.
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If you want to try an experiment in generating a price for a RAID card, try this:
Get some device rather like a Raspberry Pi, a custom RISC machine. Now if you can, get one that is low volume (RP is the exact opposite of this) and high power rather than low (256MB is pretty low for a RAID card, 1GB - 2GB is much better and normally they have monster Power or ARM chips, not super low power ones.) So $30 of hardware isn't going to do it for really getting a price, $200 is more reasonable if you can find something.
Now you need to build custom firmware. We will cheat on this for the sake of the example and use FreeBSD which likely runs there. We will use the build in ZFS RAID to handle the RAID functions. We will need to load this onto SD or something. Now we need a SAS controller (or SATA if you like) that can attach to a few devices. Maybe you found a board that has this built in, maybe not.
Now consider the cost of the hardware, software, design, testing, etc. Even building one from scratch is likely going to cost more as a hobby project that entry point cards. And the big cost, the on site warranty service, isn't included nor is customer management tools and monitoring.
It's amazing how quickly custom hardware gets to be expensive.
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OK SAM,
I guess it was just a rant at more of "how come there are more non-business consumer raid cards available....
I feel like I've been spanked on the ass as if I was a kid..
Ha
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LOL, no spanking intended.
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So the reasons why there aren't consumer RAID cards is because.... consumers don't need them. Hardware RAID is an enterprise need. Oh sure some consumer needs one but that is so rare that you can't build a product around it. What would this consumer with hardware RAID needs look like? For hardware RAID to be valuable you need a fair number of drive bays that are hot swap, you need monitoring tools, etc. It's not a casual thing in a consumer world.
Consumers have access to software RAID which is faster and "free". Very little need to go beyond that and to keep prices down you would need huge volume.
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What is the consumer use case that you are considering?
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In Home SAN system possibly, migrating all of my physical DVD / Blurays and Music to it, and wiring up the house.
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Possibly local storage for my XenServer Spinning Rust VM's as well.
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@DustinB3403 said:
In Home SAN system possibly, migrating all of my physical DVD / Blurays and Music to it, and wiring up the house.
Why not use software RAID for that? Even a NAS device that you were to buy would be doing software RAID.
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@DustinB3403 said:
Possibly local storage for my XenServer Spinning Rust VM's as well.
Same here. For a lab to learn about how XS would work with hardware RAID, sure. But in a case like that you would need the enterprise gear because that is what you are testing. If you are doing anything short of learning about that specific use case, why not software RAID again?
In many cases, especially enterprise ones, XS would be on software RAID.
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Save yourself a ton of money and build a SAM-SD - it could all be Software RAID.
@scottalanmiller did you get get the SAM-SD to run from a SD card?
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@Dashrender said:
Save yourself a ton of money and build a SAM-SD - it could all be Software RAID.
@scottalanmiller did you get get the SAM-SD to run from a SD card?
I went looking for the SAM-SD wiki that John had setup to suggest on this thread. Sadly it doesn't seem to exist anymore.
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You could also look on ebay or craigslist for an inexpensive used server. You can get a decent HP or Dell server for a few hundred dollars.
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@coliver said:
@Dashrender said:
Save yourself a ton of money and build a SAM-SD - it could all be Software RAID.
@scottalanmiller did you get get the SAM-SD to run from a SD card?
I went looking for the SAM-SD wiki that John had setup to suggest on this thread. Sadly it doesn't seem to exist anymore.
It was never filled with enough info to be useful. We need to get an official one up and running sometime soon. Just need a web designer, argh.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@Dashrender said:
Save yourself a ton of money and build a SAM-SD - it could all be Software RAID.
@scottalanmiller did you get get the SAM-SD to run from a SD card?
I went looking for the SAM-SD wiki that John had setup to suggest on this thread. Sadly it doesn't seem to exist anymore.
It was never filled with enough info to be useful. We need to get an official one up and running sometime soon. Just need a web designer, argh.
Some kind of Wiki or other website for things like that would be awesome to see attached to ML. Similar (maybe exactly) like what SW has.
