Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
To know is to have empirical evidence of it,
Not in court it is not. Ever.
So your theory is based on a false assumption.
Read the article.
To look for WHAT? An article doesn't change how courts work.
And the courts in this case have said that the defendant can't be compelled to incriminate themselves by providing a password.
What the hell are you even arguing here. You clearly aren't seeing the conversation.
I started the conversation. I started the point that asking for the password was unnecessary because he had already admitted to the crime.
YOU then argued with that point. WHy you keep bringing up that the password cannot be forced, when my point was that the password isn't even needed and I have clearly stated repeatedly that I'm discussing absolutely nothing related to if the password can be forced out of him or not, I can't explain.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
This isn't difficult, at all. He admitted to them knowing what was on there. Additionally he admitted that what they knew was on there would hurt him. The second point is superfluous, but really strongly validates what he already admitted to.
That's it. The whole point.
Okay "I know God is real and he lives on the far side of the sun, and I have proof on my encrypted computer"
Make me show you proof of that statement. Go ahead.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 they shouldn't need it, he told them that they knew what was on there. That should be all the evidence needed.
here is my original response.
I don't see how it is confusing.
"They [cops / courts] shouldn't need it [password]"
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
This isn't difficult, at all. He admitted to them knowing what was on there. Additionally he admitted that what they knew was on there would hurt him. The second point is superfluous, but really strongly validates what he already admitted to.
That's it. The whole point.
Okay "I know God is real and he lives on the far side of the sun, and I have proof on my encrypted computer"
Make me show you proof of that statement. Go ahead.
You think that that is an admission to a suspected crime? Please explain.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
To know is to have empirical evidence of it,
Not in court it is not. Ever.
So your theory is based on a false assumption.
Read the article.
To look for WHAT? An article doesn't change how courts work.
And the courts in this case have said that the defendant can't be compelled to incriminate themselves by providing a password.
What the hell are you even arguing here. You clearly aren't seeing the conversation.
I started the conversation. I started the point that asking for the password was unnecessary because he had already admitted to the crime.
YOU then argued with that point. WHy you keep bringing up that the password cannot be forced, when my point was that the password isn't even needed and I have clearly stated repeatedly that I'm discussing absolutely nothing related to if the password can be forced out of him or not, I can't explain.
The password is NEEDED, so the police can charge him with additional crimes. At this point he is suspected of having at least 1 child porn instance, along with a potential billions of other cases of it on his computer.
You're clearly missing the fucking point.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 they shouldn't need it, he told them that they knew what was on there. That should be all the evidence needed.
here is my original response.
I don't see how it is confusing.
"They [cops / courts] shouldn't need it [password]"
They need the password to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were additional crimes against children committed. Otherwise it's just a statement made during interrogation and the police don't have actual proof to bring charges up.
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
To know is to have empirical evidence of it,
Not in court it is not. Ever.
So your theory is based on a false assumption.
Read the article.
To look for WHAT? An article doesn't change how courts work.
And the courts in this case have said that the defendant can't be compelled to incriminate themselves by providing a password.
What the hell are you even arguing here. You clearly aren't seeing the conversation.
I started the conversation. I started the point that asking for the password was unnecessary because he had already admitted to the crime.
YOU then argued with that point. WHy you keep bringing up that the password cannot be forced, when my point was that the password isn't even needed and I have clearly stated repeatedly that I'm discussing absolutely nothing related to if the password can be forced out of him or not, I can't explain.
The password is NEEDED, so the police can charge him with additional crimes. At this point he is suspected of having at least 1 child porn instance, along with a potential billions of other cases of it on his computer.
You're clearly missing the fucking point.
If you believe that I had missed the point, why didn't you point that out after the first post? That's not reasonable that you responded totally crazy, and then after all this time completely change your theory and think that I missed the point.
Would it be handy to have the password, sure. Could there be more crimes hidden? Sure. In an ideal world,would he have just given them the password even without them asking? Sure. But child porn is already a "put them away for life" crime. Unless he has evidence of capital murder on there, he's not likely to have anything worse to be thrown at him. The important part is that the suspected crime, which is already essentially the worst one, is already something he's admitted to.
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
They need the password to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were additional crimes against children committed.
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
They need the password to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were additional crimes against children committed.
No, they do not. That's not how admission of guilt works. You only need to that when trying to prove someone guilty who claims that they are not. If you just admit your guilt, it doesn't even go to court except to get the sentencing.
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Otherwise it's just a statement made during interrogation and the police don't have actual proof to bring charges up.
Admission during interrogation is admission. Interrogation counts, that's why they warn you that what you say will be used against you in court.
Even duress rarely matters with admissions to cops.
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Cop: "I suspect you to be under the influence of driving while intoxicated, have you had anything to drink?"
Driver: "I want a lawyer and won't be answering any questions without one"
Cop: "Okay, we'll be administering a breathalyzer and blood draw to keep he evidence"
Driver: Can do nothing to stop that, as otherwise evidence of a crime has been committed will be "erased".
The driver never needs to admit to anything, and cannot be compelled to provide evidence in suspected other crimes - period.
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Had he simply denied them the password, this would be a totally different thing. Had he said he wasn't going to risk something on there being interrpeted as a crime. Had he said he wasn't going to self incriminate. All of those things would mean nothing.
But he made an admission way, way, way different. He said that the evidence that they knew was there truly was there. That statement to an officer in an interrogation is similar to giving up power of attorney.
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Cop: "I suspect you to be under the influence of driving while intoxicated, have you had anything to drink?"
Driver: "I want a lawyer and won't be answering any questions without one"
Cop: "Okay, we'll be administering a breathalyzer and blood draw to keep he evidence"
Driver: Can do nothing to stop that, as otherwise evidence of a crime has been committed will be "erased".
The driver never needs to admit to anything, and cannot be compelled to provide evidence in suspected other crimes - period.
Again, unrelated to the discussion. There is no doubt that the guy didn't have to admit anything. That's not being discussed, we all know that to be true. You keep repeating that as if anyone, anywhere has disagreed (or even talked about it.)
The point is that he did admit. Voluntarily. Without being asked.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
they suspect based on the statement of someone they've already charged with a similar crime and are attempting to charge with additional, similar crimes.
Nope, That's not the case. If you think this, you've missed the point of the discussion.
They don't think, they know in a legal sense because the person in question has admitted to it. That's it. Over and done, the whole thing. Passwords, eye witness, all pointless background noise.
He told the cops that what they thought was on there was, in fact, there. What more is needed to prosecute?
"Sir, we need to go in your house to see if there is evidence of a murder."
"You don't need to come in, we both know that I murdered the guy."
You don't need to see the body or find the weapon, he admitted to the crime.
This is completely different because this person explicitly admitted to murder. If the police knocked on his door and said "we need to come in and search your house", "We both know what's in there" certainly isn't an admission of any wrongdoing. Maybe when he said it would hurt him, he had pics of himself in cosplay and he was super embarrassed?
Anything the police claimed they knew but didn't actually witness first hand would certainly, 100%, be hearsay.
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@bnrstnr said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
"We both know what's in there" certainly isn't an admission of any wrongdoing.
Why not. If the cops believe it is evidence, and he says that what they believe is correct. That's exactly an admission of wrongdoing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@bnrstnr said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
"We both know what's in there" certainly isn't an admission of any wrongdoing.
Why not. If the cops believe it is evidence, and he says that what they believe is correct. That's exactly an admission of wrongdoing.
Unless they asked him if there was CP, and he said "yes, we both know what's on there" then, no, he didn't admit to anything. If they just asked for the password and he said "we both know what's on there", which seems to be the case, then I don't see what he admitted to...
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@bnrstnr said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Maybe when he said it would hurt him, he had pics of himself in cosplay and he was super embarrassed?
That might be true, but it's also irrelevant. He said that what the "cops knew", was what was on there. I'm not saying that him admitting to the crime actually proves that he did it, I'm saying that admitting to it is all that matters from a court perspective.
If you suspect me of a murder, and I admit to it freely of my own free will (that which you suspect me of, I have done officer) then that's it, over and one. Even if I didn't do it. I admitted to it and having been a suspect already, there's no more process involved.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
That might be true, but it's also irrelevant. He said that what the "cops knew", was what was on there. I'm not saying that him admitting to the crime actually proves that he did it, I'm saying that admitting to it is all that matters from a court perspective.
It's still speculation. They don't ACTUALLY know, because they've never been there...
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@bnrstnr said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@bnrstnr said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
"We both know what's in there" certainly isn't an admission of any wrongdoing.
Why not. If the cops believe it is evidence, and he says that what they believe is correct. That's exactly an admission of wrongdoing.
Unless they asked him if there was CP, and he said "yes, we both know what's on there" then, no, he didn't admit to anything. If they just asked for the password and he said "we both know what's on there", which seems to be the case, then I don't see what he admitted to...
Well, one there is no plausible situation where he wasn't made aware of why he was being or had been arrested. And two, it's up to the cops under oath to state what is on there at this point, and that's all that should matter. Because he handed to them the power to claim anything.
This would be crazy, if not for the fact that he also validated it by saying that it would hurt him, and being an already known child pornagrapher... not only was his statement black and white, but also doubly or triply validated that we have no real ability to question the intended meaning of the statement even without having the cops state what he meant (which they can do because he said that they could)
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@scottalanmiller Because, and for the last time, you can't be compelled to say something. This is ingrained in the constitution.
You cannot be compelled to give up your password to your computer, period.
Everything you've been harping on is red herrings, none of that matters. The topic was posted about how a court ruled that free speech is still free speech and that a computer password falls under that, and you can't be compelled to give up your password.
Just like the same thing with a cell phone pin code, the police can't force you to tell them what it is. But if you use a finger print reader, they can force you to unlock the phone as that's publicly accessible information - your fingerprints.
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@bnrstnr said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
That might be true, but it's also irrelevant. He said that what the "cops knew", was what was on there. I'm not saying that him admitting to the crime actually proves that he did it, I'm saying that admitting to it is all that matters from a court perspective.
It's still speculation. They don't ACTUALLY know, because they've never been there...
That's the thing, his statement makes it not speculation. That's my entire point. The cops stating what was on there without him stating that is speculation. But he made it admission.
