AWS Catastrophic Data Loss
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@Dashrender said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@BRRABill said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
because the chances that MS's DC is going to blow up is extremely small
And yet, it is what this thread is about ... exactly that happening.
Except that it's Amazon, not MS.
MS was US Central this year or late last.
MS was the world when their authentication mechanism went down I think it was a year or so ago.
MS was Europe offline with VMs hosed and a recovery needed. Weeks.
MS has had plenty of trials by fire.
Not one of the hyper-scale folks are trouble free.
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades. Cloud can't touch that. Period.
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@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@Dashrender said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@BRRABill said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
because the chances that MS's DC is going to blow up is extremely small
And yet, it is what this thread is about ... exactly that happening.
Except that it's Amazon, not MS.
MS was US Central this year or late last.
MS was the world when their authentication mechanism went down I think it was a year or so ago.
MS was Europe offline with VMs hosed and a recovery needed. Weeks.
MS has had plenty of trials by fire.
Not one of the hyper-scale folks are trouble free.
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades. Cloud can't touch that. Period.
And no updates correct right? to have 100 % Up-time you must never do updates.
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@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
And no updates correct right? to have 100 % Up-time you must never do updates.
Exactly. Even the Global Stock Markets have down time for maintenance and patching.
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@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@Dashrender said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@BRRABill said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
because the chances that MS's DC is going to blow up is extremely small
And yet, it is what this thread is about ... exactly that happening.
Except that it's Amazon, not MS.
MS was US Central this year or late last.
MS was the world when their authentication mechanism went down I think it was a year or so ago.
MS was Europe offline with VMs hosed and a recovery needed. Weeks.
MS has had plenty of trials by fire.
Not one of the hyper-scale folks are trouble free.
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades. Cloud can't touch that. Period.
And no updates correct right? to have 100 % Up-time you must never do updates.
In a cluster setting, not too difficult. In this case, 100% up-time is defined as nary a user impacted by any service or app being offline when needed.
So, point of clarification conceded.
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@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades.
Really, decades of uptime. Not a single bad ram module, raid failure, CPU, PSU or MB issue. No site issues (fire, earthquake, tornado etc) in all that time.
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Cloud can't touch that. Period.
You're full of it.
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@DustinB3403 said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades.
Really, decades of uptime. Not a single bad ram module, raid failure, CPU, PSU or MB issue. No site issues (fire, earthquake, tornado etc) in all that time.
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Cloud can't touch that. Period.
You're full of it.
I'm quite proud of our record. It's a testament to the amount of time and money put in to research, proof, and thrash the solution sets we've sold over the years. We don't sell anything we first don't proof.
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@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@DustinB3403 said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades.
Really, decades of uptime. Not a single bad ram module, raid failure, CPU, PSU or MB issue. No site issues (fire, earthquake, tornado etc) in all that time.
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Cloud can't touch that. Period.
You're full of it.
I'm quite proud of our record. It's a testament to the amount of time and money put in to research, proof, and thrash the solution sets we've sold over the years. We don't sell anything we first don't proof.
So you're using technology that is at least a decade old for every one of your customers, because by your own word you can't possibly have had the time to test anything from this year and sold it to a customer!
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@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@Dashrender said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@BRRABill said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
because the chances that MS's DC is going to blow up is extremely small
And yet, it is what this thread is about ... exactly that happening.
Except that it's Amazon, not MS.
MS was US Central this year or late last.
MS was the world when their authentication mechanism went down I think it was a year or so ago.
MS was Europe offline with VMs hosed and a recovery needed. Weeks.
MS has had plenty of trials by fire.
Not one of the hyper-scale folks are trouble free.
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades. Cloud can't touch that. Period.
And no updates correct right? to have 100 % Up-time you must never do updates.
In a cluster setting, not too difficult. In this case, 100% up-time is defined as nary a user impacted by any service or app being offline when needed.
So, point of clarification conceded.
Yes, I know you could do a cluster and that's how Cloud Providers give you that 99.9% up-time or SLA. Right now it is hard to believe no one has any issues, if cloud providers in a large scale have issues then smaller companies do have them as well. That said, no cloud provider provides any backups for anyone unless you set them up either through their offering or your company.
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@DustinB3403 said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@DustinB3403 said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades.
Really, decades of uptime. Not a single bad ram module, raid failure, CPU, PSU or MB issue. No site issues (fire, earthquake, tornado etc) in all that time.
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Cloud can't touch that. Period.
You're full of it.
I'm quite proud of our record. It's a testament to the amount of time and money put in to research, proof, and thrash the solution sets we've sold over the years. We don't sell anything we first don't proof.
So you're using technology that is at least a decade old for every one of your customers, because by your own word you can't possibly have had the time to test anything from this year and sold it to a customer!
Not sure how that conclusion came about but far from it.
We've had plenty of NDAs over the years to proof with upcoming tech so that we're on the right page and current.
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@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@DustinB3403 said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@DustinB3403 said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades.
Really, decades of uptime. Not a single bad ram module, raid failure, CPU, PSU or MB issue. No site issues (fire, earthquake, tornado etc) in all that time.
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Cloud can't touch that. Period.
You're full of it.
I'm quite proud of our record. It's a testament to the amount of time and money put in to research, proof, and thrash the solution sets we've sold over the years. We don't sell anything we first don't proof.
So you're using technology that is at least a decade old for every one of your customers, because by your own word you can't possibly have had the time to test anything from this year and sold it to a customer!
Not sure how that conclusion came about but far from it.
We've had plenty of NDAs over the years to proof with upcoming tech so that we're on the right page and current.
You've said you've tested everything that you sell. How could this possibly be true to make claims of decades worth of up-time. Power supplies fail, switches die, disks die, MB's die, sites lose power (which people still have jobs to do - just because the lights are out. . .)
So you're still full of it. Not to mention performing any update will eventually require a restart. Windows updates, file server migrations etc. All require some downtime.
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@DustinB3403 said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@DustinB3403 said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@DustinB3403 said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades.
Really, decades of uptime. Not a single bad ram module, raid failure, CPU, PSU or MB issue. No site issues (fire, earthquake, tornado etc) in all that time.
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Cloud can't touch that. Period.
You're full of it.
I'm quite proud of our record. It's a testament to the amount of time and money put in to research, proof, and thrash the solution sets we've sold over the years. We don't sell anything we first don't proof.
So you're using technology that is at least a decade old for every one of your customers, because by your own word you can't possibly have had the time to test anything from this year and sold it to a customer!
Not sure how that conclusion came about but far from it.
We've had plenty of NDAs over the years to proof with upcoming tech so that we're on the right page and current.
You've said you've tested everything that you sell. How could this possibly be true to make claims of decades worth of up-time. Power supplies fail, switches die, disks die, MB's die, sites lose power (which people still have jobs to do - just because the lights are out. . .)
So you're still full of it. Not to mention performing any update will eventually require a restart. Windows updates, file server migrations etc. All require some downtime.
all of those things can fail - as long as they have an HA solution that accounts for those failures.
As he said earlier - the customer has NEVER been impacted - that's the point of measurement.
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Adding this graphic again...
The data is on the customer!
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@IRJ said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Adding this graphic again...
The data is on the customer!
Where is that table from?
I'm just wondering, not disputing it
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@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@Dashrender said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@BRRABill said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
because the chances that MS's DC is going to blow up is extremely small
And yet, it is what this thread is about ... exactly that happening.
Except that it's Amazon, not MS.
MS was US Central this year or late last.
MS was the world when their authentication mechanism went down I think it was a year or so ago.
MS was Europe offline with VMs hosed and a recovery needed. Weeks.
MS has had plenty of trials by fire.
Not one of the hyper-scale folks are trouble free.
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades. Cloud can't touch that. Period.
And no updates correct right? to have 100 % Up-time you must never do updates.
In a cluster setting, not too difficult. In this case, 100% up-time is defined as nary a user impacted by any service or app being offline when needed.
So, point of clarification conceded.
Yes, I know you could do a cluster and that's how Cloud Providers give you that 99.9% up-time or SLA. Right now it is hard to believe no one has any issues, if cloud providers in a large scale have issues then smaller companies do have them as well. That said, no cloud provider provides any backups for anyone unless you set them up either through their offering or your company.
Yeah and you can only fault yourself, if you are one AZ that fails. Most serious deployments are in different regions as well.
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@IRJ said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@Dashrender said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@BRRABill said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
because the chances that MS's DC is going to blow up is extremely small
And yet, it is what this thread is about ... exactly that happening.
Except that it's Amazon, not MS.
MS was US Central this year or late last.
MS was the world when their authentication mechanism went down I think it was a year or so ago.
MS was Europe offline with VMs hosed and a recovery needed. Weeks.
MS has had plenty of trials by fire.
Not one of the hyper-scale folks are trouble free.
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades. Cloud can't touch that. Period.
And no updates correct right? to have 100 % Up-time you must never do updates.
In a cluster setting, not too difficult. In this case, 100% up-time is defined as nary a user impacted by any service or app being offline when needed.
So, point of clarification conceded.
Yes, I know you could do a cluster and that's how Cloud Providers give you that 99.9% up-time or SLA. Right now it is hard to believe no one has any issues, if cloud providers in a large scale have issues then smaller companies do have them as well. That said, no cloud provider provides any backups for anyone unless you set them up either through their offering or your company.
Yeah and you can only fault yourself, if you are one AZ that fails. Most serious deployments are in different regions as well.
Well, except that:
@Pete-S said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
As we have further investigated this event with our customers, we have discovered a few isolated cases where customers' applications running across multiple Availability Zones saw unexpected impact
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@Pete-S said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@IRJ said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Adding this graphic again...
The data is on the customer!
Where is that table from?
I'm just wondering, not disputing it
I learned this while doing my Cloud Security Cert. As you can see all major cloud providers follow this model as this was set by CSA (Cloud Security Alliance) as proper customer responsibility.
https://pen-testing.sans.org/blog/2012/07/05/pen-testing-in-the-cloud
https://aws.amazon.com/compliance/shared-responsibility-model/
https://gallery.technet.microsoft.com/Shared-Responsibilities-81d0ff91
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@Pete-S said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@IRJ said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@Dashrender said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@BRRABill said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
because the chances that MS's DC is going to blow up is extremely small
And yet, it is what this thread is about ... exactly that happening.
Except that it's Amazon, not MS.
MS was US Central this year or late last.
MS was the world when their authentication mechanism went down I think it was a year or so ago.
MS was Europe offline with VMs hosed and a recovery needed. Weeks.
MS has had plenty of trials by fire.
Not one of the hyper-scale folks are trouble free.
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades. Cloud can't touch that. Period.
And no updates correct right? to have 100 % Up-time you must never do updates.
In a cluster setting, not too difficult. In this case, 100% up-time is defined as nary a user impacted by any service or app being offline when needed.
So, point of clarification conceded.
Yes, I know you could do a cluster and that's how Cloud Providers give you that 99.9% up-time or SLA. Right now it is hard to believe no one has any issues, if cloud providers in a large scale have issues then smaller companies do have them as well. That said, no cloud provider provides any backups for anyone unless you set them up either through their offering or your company.
Yeah and you can only fault yourself, if you are one AZ that fails. Most serious deployments are in different regions as well.
Well, except that:
@Pete-S said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
As we have further investigated this event with our customers, we have discovered a few isolated cases where customers' applications running across multiple Availability Zones saw unexpected impact
They didnt say regions though
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@Pete-S said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@IRJ said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@Dashrender said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@BRRABill said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
because the chances that MS's DC is going to blow up is extremely small
And yet, it is what this thread is about ... exactly that happening.
Except that it's Amazon, not MS.
MS was US Central this year or late last.
MS was the world when their authentication mechanism went down I think it was a year or so ago.
MS was Europe offline with VMs hosed and a recovery needed. Weeks.
MS has had plenty of trials by fire.
Not one of the hyper-scale folks are trouble free.
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades. Cloud can't touch that. Period.
And no updates correct right? to have 100 % Up-time you must never do updates.
In a cluster setting, not too difficult. In this case, 100% up-time is defined as nary a user impacted by any service or app being offline when needed.
So, point of clarification conceded.
Yes, I know you could do a cluster and that's how Cloud Providers give you that 99.9% up-time or SLA. Right now it is hard to believe no one has any issues, if cloud providers in a large scale have issues then smaller companies do have them as well. That said, no cloud provider provides any backups for anyone unless you set them up either through their offering or your company.
Yeah and you can only fault yourself, if you are one AZ that fails. Most serious deployments are in different regions as well.
Well, except that:
@Pete-S said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
As we have further investigated this event with our customers, we have discovered a few isolated cases where customers' applications running across multiple Availability Zones saw unexpected impact
At some point, you have to be willing to accept some risks by by not using a different region, generally the risk is VERY, VERY low which is why many customers use AZs.
You have to do risk anaylsis, and see how often these events occur and how likely you would be to be one of the "few" that were impacted.
You can dig in the weeds all you want, but across multiple regions this wouldnt have happened. Which is true HA
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@IRJ said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@Pete-S said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@IRJ said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@dbeato said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@PhlipElder said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@Dashrender said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@BRRABill said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
because the chances that MS's DC is going to blow up is extremely small
And yet, it is what this thread is about ... exactly that happening.
Except that it's Amazon, not MS.
MS was US Central this year or late last.
MS was the world when their authentication mechanism went down I think it was a year or so ago.
MS was Europe offline with VMs hosed and a recovery needed. Weeks.
MS has had plenty of trials by fire.
Not one of the hyper-scale folks are trouble free.
Most of our clients have had 100% up-time across solution sets for years and in some cases we're coming up on decades. Cloud can't touch that. Period.
And no updates correct right? to have 100 % Up-time you must never do updates.
In a cluster setting, not too difficult. In this case, 100% up-time is defined as nary a user impacted by any service or app being offline when needed.
So, point of clarification conceded.
Yes, I know you could do a cluster and that's how Cloud Providers give you that 99.9% up-time or SLA. Right now it is hard to believe no one has any issues, if cloud providers in a large scale have issues then smaller companies do have them as well. That said, no cloud provider provides any backups for anyone unless you set them up either through their offering or your company.
Yeah and you can only fault yourself, if you are one AZ that fails. Most serious deployments are in different regions as well.
Well, except that:
@Pete-S said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
As we have further investigated this event with our customers, we have discovered a few isolated cases where customers' applications running across multiple Availability Zones saw unexpected impact
At some point, you have to be willing to accept some risks by by not using a different region, generally the risk is VERY, VERY low which is why many customers use AZs.
You have to do risk anaylsis, and see how often these events occur and how likely you would be to be one of the "few" that were impacted.
You can dig in the weeds all you want, but across multiple regions this wouldnt have happened. Which is true HA
Well, different regions wouldn't be enough for true HA. You'd need different cloud providers as well.
Otherwise you have something called common mode failure. Which is for instance that they are running on the same architecture, maybe even the same hardware and as such could be susceptible to a single problem that will affect the entire cloud.
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@IRJ said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@Pete-S said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
@IRJ said in AWS Catastrophic Data Loss:
Adding this graphic again...
The data is on the customer!
Where is that table from?
I'm just wondering, not disputing it
I learned this while doing my Cloud Security Cert. As you can see all major cloud providers follow this model as this was set by CSA (Cloud Security Alliance) as proper customer responsibility.
https://pen-testing.sans.org/blog/2012/07/05/pen-testing-in-the-cloud
https://aws.amazon.com/compliance/shared-responsibility-model/
https://gallery.technet.microsoft.com/Shared-Responsibilities-81d0ff91
Awesome, thanks!
