When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
It is THEIR decision to make. But if this was a public company in the US and they actually did things as you describe, investors would have legal recourse because it's not just a bad decision, it's one made in such a described way as to have violated the trust of the investors.
I understand that we don't know who made the decision, when or why, so I can't say that this IS what happened here. But your description of them being happy losing money and that profits are not their goals and that they feel that good decisions don't mean doing what is best for the business are all violations of trust under US law. So not just bad, but unethical in that context.
They are getting the profit they want at the cost they want... its hitting their target and SQL Server was I guess still able to put them in their target. They are happy and its what they wanted.
Right... you honestly believe that they want to CAP their profits? I'm serious, you actually believe that if you asked them, just casually over drinks, if they really don't want more profits and are intentionally limiting it that they would agree that their goal is limited profits, not to earn as much as possible?
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I need to get from A to B by car. I could get a low cost car, or a high cost car. If I'm happy to get the high cost car because its what my kids want... then fine. They are happy, i'm happy, just spending a little more to get from A to B. We've got where we need to be, with a bit more cost - acceptable cost because of #reasons. That's fine.
Personal preferences are a different thing to business. #reasons aren't things that can be considered by a public business or by someone paid to represent the interests of a business.
The preference of the devs was SQL server. The preference of the company is to keep the devs happy, and for whatever that price was, they get hard working happy devs. Yes, they could have equally got rid of them for other devs who want to use cheaper devs, but perhaps they don't just want to fire a team of people over a small cost increase when they are well above hitting their yearly financial targets. Not everywhere is cutthroat.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
It is THEIR decision to make. But if this was a public company in the US and they actually did things as you describe, investors would have legal recourse because it's not just a bad decision, it's one made in such a described way as to have violated the trust of the investors.
I understand that we don't know who made the decision, when or why, so I can't say that this IS what happened here. But your description of them being happy losing money and that profits are not their goals and that they feel that good decisions don't mean doing what is best for the business are all violations of trust under US law. So not just bad, but unethical in that context.
They are getting the profit they want at the cost they want... its hitting their target and SQL Server was I guess still able to put them in their target. They are happy and its what they wanted.
Right... you honestly believe that they want to CAP their profits? I'm serious, you actually believe that if you asked them, just casually over drinks, if they really don't want more profits and are intentionally limiting it that they would agree that their goal is limited profits, not to earn as much as possible?
Yeah, I can see this. I'm not saying if the company are right or wrong, I'm just saying I don't know, and it may be more than reasonable the reason. Its an unknown.
The fact is, were doing what the company wants, and are highly available without VMWare... what I was trying to say originally
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I need to get from A to B by car. I could get a low cost car, or a high cost car. If I'm happy to get the high cost car because its what my kids want... then fine. They are happy, i'm happy, just spending a little more to get from A to B. We've got where we need to be, with a bit more cost - acceptable cost because of #reasons. That's fine.
Personal preferences are a different thing to business. #reasons aren't things that can be considered by a public business or by someone paid to represent the interests of a business.
The preference of the devs was SQL server. The preference of the company is to keep the devs happy, and for whatever that price was, they get hard working happy devs. Yes, they could have equally got rid of them for other devs who want to use cheaper devs, but perhaps they don't just want to fire a team of people over a small cost increase when they are well above hitting their yearly financial targets. Not everywhere is cutthroat.
It's not about being cutthroat, that's what the devs were being. Any competent dev wouldn't care at all, as long as it was the right tech for the business. That they devs were not working towards the interests of the business seems like a really weird reason to placate them, right?
It's not about the HUGE cost that came with it, it's about the even bigger problems that it hides. Like support issues, cost of development, and so forth. Sure, this one cost might be close to $100,000 lost alone and maybe the owners really hate profits. But it's also slower development, harder to attract good talent in the future, devs that make a culture of not acting as part of the "team" and so forth.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
The fact is, were doing what the company wants, and are highly available without VMWare... what I was trying to say originally
lolI understand, and I'm just reading that back as " the company doesn't care about profits." Is that really the goal of the company, HA above profits?
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
I need to get from A to B by car. I could get a low cost car, or a high cost car. If I'm happy to get the high cost car because its what my kids want... then fine. They are happy, i'm happy, just spending a little more to get from A to B. We've got where we need to be, with a bit more cost - acceptable cost because of #reasons. That's fine.
Personal preferences are a different thing to business. #reasons aren't things that can be considered by a public business or by someone paid to represent the interests of a business.
The preference of the devs was SQL server. The preference of the company is to keep the devs happy, and for whatever that price was, they get hard working happy devs. Yes, they could have equally got rid of them for other devs who want to use cheaper devs, but perhaps they don't just want to fire a team of people over a small cost increase when they are well above hitting their yearly financial targets. Not everywhere is cutthroat.
It's not about being cutthroat, that's what the devs were being. Any competent dev wouldn't care at all, as long as it was the right tech for the business. That they devs were not working towards the interests of the business seems like a really weird reason to placate them, right?
It's not about the HUGE cost that came with it, it's about the even bigger problems that it hides. Like support issues, cost of development, and so forth. Sure, this one cost might be close to $100,000 lost alone and maybe the owners really hate profits. But it's also slower development, harder to attract good talent in the future, devs that make a culture of not acting as part of the "team" and so forth.
Perhaps back when they started the developers they had were most competent with SQL Server. Its what they had experience with. Use what you know right? What if the time to hit the market was then, and any delay would stop you being first and capturing the market... you get them SQL Server. Delay if training them in something else, or delay to fire them and recruit people with experience in less expensive solutions... what if that made them miss their window to be first and capture the market... no ongoing business at all. You missed your chance. That 100k lost from that decision could have protected 50million for all I know.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Perhaps back when they started the developers they had were most competent with SQL Server. Its what they had experience with. Use what you know right?
That's my point, no. For lots of reasons...
- It's just not good business, using what you know instead of what is right for the business.
- Devs don't need to "know" anything about the database, that's for IT to know. They just write the queries and even that isn't common. It's abstracted from them.
- If learning a database from either perspective takes ANY effort, you have a major development problem that is going to spiral into all kinds of problems.
- Same for languages, the slightest level of development competency means that databases and languages are not barriers, ever.
- If you use what you know, this means that someone must have hired them based on that and was the ACTUAL decision maker, why did they hire people who can only do one thing and not a thing appropriate to the need?
This is something I've dealt with for a long time. Sure, things in the murky past present a lot of ambiguity to say "well maybe it" but let's be realistic. In the real world, there is no actual situation that is going to have realistically happened to justify this, especially given other things we know (profits not prioritized, butts in seats, etc.) that suggest a long term problematic way of thinking.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Delay if training them in something else, or delay to fire them and recruit people with experience in less expensive solutions... what if that made them miss their window to be first and capture the market... no ongoing business at all. You missed your chance. That 100k lost from that decision could have protected 50million for all I know.
This is decent logic and in a vacuum makes total sense. In a programming one, though, it does not. This is actually the reason that you'd fire them immediately because it suggests that they are super slow programmers that are not going to be able to execute quickly. For exactly the reason of fearing delays is why you would not follow this path.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Delay if training them in something else, or delay to fire them and recruit people with experience in less expensive solutions... what if that made them miss their window to be first and capture the market... no ongoing business at all. You missed your chance. That 100k lost from that decision could have protected 50million for all I know.
This is decent logic and in a vacuum makes total sense. In a programming one, though, it does not. This is actually the reason that you'd fire them immediately because it suggests that they are super slow programmers that are not going to be able to execute quickly. For exactly the reason of fearing delays is why you would not follow this path.
I will never know the reasons. Any discussions can only be guesses here.
All I know for sure here is that i'm happy with HA that has been accomplished within my remit, all without the cost of VMWare.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Delay if training them in something else, or delay to fire them and recruit people with experience in less expensive solutions... what if that made them miss their window to be first and capture the market... no ongoing business at all. You missed your chance. That 100k lost from that decision could have protected 50million for all I know.
This is decent logic and in a vacuum makes total sense. In a programming one, though, it does not. This is actually the reason that you'd fire them immediately because it suggests that they are super slow programmers that are not going to be able to execute quickly. For exactly the reason of fearing delays is why you would not follow this path.
I will never know the reasons. Any discussions can only be guesses here.
All I know for sure here is that i'm happy with HA that has been accomplished within my remit, all without the cost of VMWare.
I agree, it sounds like given your incredible constraints that this is a good solution for you. It might be worth looking at other free hypervisors and maybe going for platform HA there, as well, but not likely.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Delay if training them in something else, or delay to fire them and recruit people with experience in less expensive solutions... what if that made them miss their window to be first and capture the market... no ongoing business at all. You missed your chance. That 100k lost from that decision could have protected 50million for all I know.
This is decent logic and in a vacuum makes total sense. In a programming one, though, it does not. This is actually the reason that you'd fire them immediately because it suggests that they are super slow programmers that are not going to be able to execute quickly. For exactly the reason of fearing delays is why you would not follow this path.
I will never know the reasons. Any discussions can only be guesses here.
All I know for sure here is that i'm happy with HA that has been accomplished within my remit, all without the cost of VMWare.
I agree, it sounds like given your incredible constraints that this is a good solution for you. It might be worth looking at other free hypervisors and maybe going for platform HA there, as well, but not likely.
If it means learning something new, its always a good thing in my book.
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@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Delay if training them in something else, or delay to fire them and recruit people with experience in less expensive solutions... what if that made them miss their window to be first and capture the market... no ongoing business at all. You missed your chance. That 100k lost from that decision could have protected 50million for all I know.
This is decent logic and in a vacuum makes total sense. In a programming one, though, it does not. This is actually the reason that you'd fire them immediately because it suggests that they are super slow programmers that are not going to be able to execute quickly. For exactly the reason of fearing delays is why you would not follow this path.
I will never know the reasons. Any discussions can only be guesses here.
All I know for sure here is that i'm happy with HA that has been accomplished within my remit, all without the cost of VMWare.
I agree, it sounds like given your incredible constraints that this is a good solution for you. It might be worth looking at other free hypervisors and maybe going for platform HA there, as well, but not likely.
If it means learning something new, its always a good thing in my book.
Good for you, not always a good business decision
Only because learning one thing new always has to come at the expensive of learning something else new, so choosing which new thing is more important is the trade off. -
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Jimmy9008 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
Delay if training them in something else, or delay to fire them and recruit people with experience in less expensive solutions... what if that made them miss their window to be first and capture the market... no ongoing business at all. You missed your chance. That 100k lost from that decision could have protected 50million for all I know.
This is decent logic and in a vacuum makes total sense. In a programming one, though, it does not. This is actually the reason that you'd fire them immediately because it suggests that they are super slow programmers that are not going to be able to execute quickly. For exactly the reason of fearing delays is why you would not follow this path.
I will never know the reasons. Any discussions can only be guesses here.
All I know for sure here is that i'm happy with HA that has been accomplished within my remit, all without the cost of VMWare.
I agree, it sounds like given your incredible constraints that this is a good solution for you. It might be worth looking at other free hypervisors and maybe going for platform HA there, as well, but not likely.
If it means learning something new, its always a good thing in my book.
Good for you, not always a good business decision
Yep agree. Ha.
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You would not likely buy something just for this, but VMware has vVols. I don't think that anyone else has an equivalent technology, yet.
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@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
The cost of the solution isn't expensive if your business requires those features.
example?
Fault Tolerance with vendor support for it. Technically not limited to Vmware, but essentially limited to it. I believe Suse with Xen is the only other vendor who offers OEM vendor support for that.
Agree 100%. It is one of the cheapest supported solutions. Issue is if you can afford it! Usually not here.
Of course exceptions can be around. But are exceptions imho in the small business.Not sure it is the cheapest. Compare to Red Hat, I bet RH is cheaper. I've not compared, I'm just guessing.
Not really. If you want live migration and other stuff you have yo go rhve or how the hell they name ovirt.
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@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
The cost of the solution isn't expensive if your business requires those features.
example?
Fault Tolerance with vendor support for it. Technically not limited to Vmware, but essentially limited to it. I believe Suse with Xen is the only other vendor who offers OEM vendor support for that.
Agree 100%. It is one of the cheapest supported solutions. Issue is if you can afford it! Usually not here.
Of course exceptions can be around. But are exceptions imho in the small business.Not sure it is the cheapest. Compare to Red Hat, I bet RH is cheaper. I've not compared, I'm just guessing.
Not really. If you want live migration and other stuff you have yo go rhve or how the hell they name ovirt.
Plain KVM has done live migration from the very beginning…
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@Francesco-Provino said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
The cost of the solution isn't expensive if your business requires those features.
example?
Fault Tolerance with vendor support for it. Technically not limited to Vmware, but essentially limited to it. I believe Suse with Xen is the only other vendor who offers OEM vendor support for that.
Agree 100%. It is one of the cheapest supported solutions. Issue is if you can afford it! Usually not here.
Of course exceptions can be around. But are exceptions imho in the small business.Not sure it is the cheapest. Compare to Red Hat, I bet RH is cheaper. I've not compared, I'm just guessing.
Not really. If you want live migration and other stuff you have yo go rhve or how the hell they name ovirt.
Plain KVM has done live migration from the very beginning…
Yes but if we talk about support for this kind of things, this is provided via rh virtualization.
Try live migrate with stock centos: it doesn't work. You need to pull from rh virtualization sources. Centos has a set of packages for this specific need. It also does share nothing migration
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@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Francesco-Provino said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@scottalanmiller said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@matteo-nunziati said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@DustinB3403 said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
The cost of the solution isn't expensive if your business requires those features.
example?
Fault Tolerance with vendor support for it. Technically not limited to Vmware, but essentially limited to it. I believe Suse with Xen is the only other vendor who offers OEM vendor support for that.
Agree 100%. It is one of the cheapest supported solutions. Issue is if you can afford it! Usually not here.
Of course exceptions can be around. But are exceptions imho in the small business.Not sure it is the cheapest. Compare to Red Hat, I bet RH is cheaper. I've not compared, I'm just guessing.
Not really. If you want live migration and other stuff you have yo go rhve or how the hell they name ovirt.
Plain KVM has done live migration from the very beginning…
Yes but if we talk about support for this kind of things, this is provided via rh virtualization.
Try live migrate with stock centos: it doesn't work. You need to pull from rh virtualization sources. Centos has a set of packages for this specific need. It also does share nothing migration
Also long distance vmotion is another fun on. On vSphere I can migrate stuff from London to NYC without disrtuption. Also NSX will virtualize the network so that VMs network will actually work running active active over long distances with full ingress/egress and BGP.
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@Reid-Cooper said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
You would not likely buy something just for this, but VMware has vVols. I don't think that anyone else has an equivalent technology.
Vvols is amazingly powerful, and there's nothing even on roadmap for something similar from others. Even small shops can benefit from the 50x snapshot performance improvement.
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@John-Nicholson said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
@Reid-Cooper said in When to use VMWare over free hypervisors?:
You would not likely buy something just for this, but VMware has vVols. I don't think that anyone else has an equivalent technology.
Vvols is amazingly powerful, and there's nothing even on roadmap for something similar from others. Even small shops can benefit from the 50x snapshot performance improvement.
What they do exactly? Link please
