Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions
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All I can say is that in the past I did find missing features (not builds, but small things in the UI and so on) and reported them back and all I received back was prompt help and assistance.
I can only speak from my own experience.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Sometimes it's just a feeling, you read a series of postings and you get the impression that's arrogant.
Here are the other posts that I led off with in the community. Assuming someone had read these all together (I think Patrick had responded before the CentOS one was up, even) this is what together is seen as arrogant? Please, and I mean this, take a moment to read these four posts. Don't assume anything, just read them. What should I have done differently? Aside from simply not having gone to the community for help at all, how could I have improved? Read them honestly, I've gone back several times, I see nothing that could be construed as arrogant here.
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I think by now I am too biased to be able to offer an impartial view on this. So probably not the best person to ask to.
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I provided all the info on the technical issues. I explained why we were testing these specifically. I explained that we already had an install up and running on 16.04. I stated that I'd post the technical details individually.
I'm not sure how I could pussy foot around any more than I did.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
I think by now I am too biased to be able to offer an impartial view on this. So probably not the best person to ask to.
I think that the community led off that way. The bias came through with the very first responses. Maybe not bias, maybe defensiveness? But trust me, no arrogance in those posts. Am I arrogant? Sure, I'll buy that. Not sure why, but everyone says it, so it must be true. But look at those posts, it's not in them. That bias came from somewhere else. The community had it before I got there.
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perhaps you should just have waited for someone to come back with a technical answer.
Not sure, anyway, everyone is happy, including me as my email still works.
So please do have a good evening.
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Perhaps it was just a bad conversation to start with. Who to blame? Who knows, sometimes things between husband and wife go wrongly and who is too blame? who knows.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
perhaps you should just have waited for someone to come back with a technical answer.
Yeah, blame the victim. I was polite, I was attacked. I show why it wasn't fair to attack me, I get blamed as arrogant. I show why I wasn't arrogant, I should have let people post and not respond that they had the wrong idea.
I see the trend, no matter what I do, it's my fault. Same run around about the distros. I run CentOS, I should have used Ubuntu, use Ubuntu, I should have run CentOS. Both fail, oh, should run Debian. Always my fault and some silly excuse.
First it was my fault for not posting in the community. Then I'm arrogant for having done it and daring to ask a question. Then I shouldn't have responded. And, wait for it, I just shouldn't have posted if I was going to dare ask a question.
Where does it end? I feel like I was "at fault" the moment that I tried to give Kopano a chance and something went wrong. Anything that I've ever said about it that wasn't praise was met with something wrong about me or wrong about what I wanted or wrong about where I asked it. And if I change to do the thing that I was told to do, I was wrong to do that.
It's a no win here. There is no action I can take, no advice I can follow that doesn't get me called arrogant, rude and wrong. And there never was.
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ok so the community was arrogant and you were fine
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Not sure, anyway, everyone is happy, including me as my email still works.
Are they? We both know that some people have tried it and walked away. The community only found out because you asked us to tell them and you see why we dont' normally do that, what a wasted effort that was. The community is tiny, I mean seriously tiny. There aren't enough people in that community to gauge if it is working or not. There simply aren't enough users. Given that the majority of people for whom an install does not work will just walk away and never report it, you can pretty safely assume that with that few people who have reported it working that there are likely a lot of people for whom it is not working . What you can't assume is that "it's working for everyone". We know that isn't true factually, and statistically it would suggest that the failure rate is likely pretty high.
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@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
ok so the community was arrogant and you were fine
I've spend my entire day being attacked at this point, all for trying to be helpful. Put yourself in my shoes.
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Look, I have no idea how many customers Kopano/Zarafa has how many community users they have and how many employees they have.
I have honestly not the tiniest idea about this.
When you asked the question which software to run I gave you my honest opinion.
You then told me it wasn't working (it does for me but who knows perhaps my installation is different) I told you to go to the forums or email support as I do when I have a problem.
The community is tiny huge, medium? I have no idea.
The product works for me, when I have questions I get helped, quite frankly, that's all I care.
If you prefer another product because you think is bigger, more stable, whatever? That's fine too!
As I said I (personally) cannot use anything else other than Kopano.
How many bugs did I find in the last year? Exactly one of which is so tiny that nobody ever noticed.
For me this is stable enough.
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@mcostan fanboi much? Your responses in this thread are comparable to some of @DustinB3403 threads gushing on XS.
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Just for the record @JaredBusch thinks I'm arrogant too. He's not saying I'm not
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@scottalanmiller said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
Just for the record @JaredBusch thinks I'm arrogant too. He's not saying I'm not
A bit moreso than myself, yes. Pots and kettles and all that.
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@scottalanmiller said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
There there was some back and forth with the vendor to help to explain to them how Ubuntu support works as they were not familiar with it. They kindly pointed out that Kopano doesn't support the same versions that Ubuntu does, so they have a "production mismatch" which we consider non-viable. So that's fine. It is what it is. Then Patrick picks up with this as his further response. Sure sounds like someone trying to get us to pay...
Actually I felt it was more about Patrick either not understanding or not agreeing with Scott's explanation on Ubuntu's LTS support situation.
From my reading, Patrick only picked up on the fact that Scott wanted Enterprise level support. Which isn't what Scott wanted - Scott wanted the software to run on a fully supported OS, of which 16.04 no longer qualifies.
But because Patrick is thinking Scott wants enterprise support, he's telling Scott to go buy support, because enterprise support isn't free, and free support isn't fast.
I have no idea why Patrick thinks Scott's in a hurry to get this resolved, perhaps the fast back and forth between them gave Patrick the impression that Scott was in a hurry to get this resolved, perhaps the flurry of new threads Scott created implied and expedience that wasn't real. Again, not really sure. But frankly, I've been in Patrick's position like this before, and it's very easy to think there is a need for fast response that's not real.
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@romo wanted me to point out that this was the support matrix we were working from last night, it was updated this morning so is a bit better now, 16.04 for example. Just for reference.
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@scottalanmiller said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
So in the subject of production readiness that's again a matter of judgement and I do believe the opposite than you do.
That's fine. But that wasn't an issue on their community, that was never mentioned.
Actually, I think this is at the heart of the issue on their forums post between you and Patrick.
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@Dashrender said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
@scottalanmiller said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
So in the subject of production readiness that's again a matter of judgement and I do believe the opposite than you do.
That's fine. But that wasn't an issue on their community, that was never mentioned.
Actually, I think this is at the heart of the issue on their forums post between you and Patrick.
It might be the source of the issue (that we are looking for a production system and they see this as a hobby system where operational readiness of a business is not a concern) but it was not mentioned, so if that was the cause of Patrick's response, he brought it to the table himself and that's an issue.
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@scottalanmiller said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
@Dashrender said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
@scottalanmiller said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
@mcostan said in Finding the Best Open Source Email Solutions:
So in the subject of production readiness that's again a matter of judgement and I do believe the opposite than you do.
That's fine. But that wasn't an issue on their community, that was never mentioned.
Actually, I think this is at the heart of the issue on their forums post between you and Patrick.
It might be the source of the issue (that we are looking for a production system and they see this as a hobby system where operational readiness of a business is not a concern) but it was not mentioned, so if that was the cause of Patrick's response, he brought it to the table himself and that's an issue.
Scott is one of the rare few people I know who will basically not accept any compromises if there is an option that allows you not to compromise.
In Scott's opinion, Ubuntu LTS is a dead platform. It's dead because Canonical has stated that it doesn't get the same level of support as the current released OS does. Think of it another way - Scott considers Windows 7 a dead platform because MS isn't making fixes for it anymore. Sure they make security updates, but not fixes. To him, it's business suicide to stand up any solution that uses Windows 7 today, and the same goes for standing up any solution that uses Ubuntu 16.04.
Because of this point of view Scott considers Kopano as a company who doesn't care about keeping their product current, because they are not supporting the fully supported/fixed OS.
Some will consider this point of view as arrogant.
