MangoCon 2017
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@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
Trains are for those with nothing else to do...
Actually, quite the opposite. On the train you have Internet, power and plenty of space. You can be very productive on trains and they let you rest or sleep, which is a big deal, especially if you've just been flying a long way and might have jet lag or no chance to sleep. Driving completely takes your attention and requires that you be able to control your sleep schedule before and after.
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@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
Trains are for those with nothing else to do...
Actually, quite the opposite. On the train you have Internet, power and plenty of space. You can be very productive on trains and they let you rest or sleep, which is a big deal, especially if you've just been flying a long way and might have jet lag or no chance to sleep. Driving completely takes your attention and requires that you be able to control your sleep schedule before and after.
While true, your perspective is skewed by access. He lives in the center of the country where there is zero infrastructure.
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@JaredBusch said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
Trains are for those with nothing else to do...
Actually, quite the opposite. On the train you have Internet, power and plenty of space. You can be very productive on trains and they let you rest or sleep, which is a big deal, especially if you've just been flying a long way and might have jet lag or no chance to sleep. Driving completely takes your attention and requires that you be able to control your sleep schedule before and after.
While true, your perspective is skewed by access. He lives in the center of the country where there is zero infrastructure.
His reference was specifically about the NYC to Rochester run. Which is a long, boring five or six hour drive. The train, when good, does it in the same time. When bad is a few hours longer, but with time to rest and work if needed.
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@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@JaredBusch said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
Trains are for those with nothing else to do...
Actually, quite the opposite. On the train you have Internet, power and plenty of space. You can be very productive on trains and they let you rest or sleep, which is a big deal, especially if you've just been flying a long way and might have jet lag or no chance to sleep. Driving completely takes your attention and requires that you be able to control your sleep schedule before and after.
While true, your perspective is skewed by access. He lives in the center of the country where there is zero infrastructure.
His reference was specifically about the NYC to Rochester run. Which is a long, boring five or six hour drive. The train, when good, does it in the same time. When bad is a few hours longer, but with time to rest and work if needed.
The discussion was around that run, but his statement was blanket. Not about that run.
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@JaredBusch said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@JaredBusch said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
Trains are for those with nothing else to do...
Actually, quite the opposite. On the train you have Internet, power and plenty of space. You can be very productive on trains and they let you rest or sleep, which is a big deal, especially if you've just been flying a long way and might have jet lag or no chance to sleep. Driving completely takes your attention and requires that you be able to control your sleep schedule before and after.
While true, your perspective is skewed by access. He lives in the center of the country where there is zero infrastructure.
His reference was specifically about the NYC to Rochester run. Which is a long, boring five or six hour drive. The train, when good, does it in the same time. When bad is a few hours longer, but with time to rest and work if needed.
The discussion was around that run, but his statement was blanket. Not about that run.
Well generally the statement can't be true either. As a blanket statement it's wrong. It can be true if you live somewhere not serviced by a train or want to go somewhere not serviced by the same run, of course. But when you are going places that the train goes, it's untrue. So in this specific case, it's patently backwards. As a blanket statement, it is always untrue in that it is only sometimes true. In the same way, you could say airplanes are for people with spare time if you don't live by an airport. Or cars are if you don't own one and have to rent one every time.
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@JaredBusch said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
Trains are for those with nothing else to do...
Actually, quite the opposite. On the train you have Internet, power and plenty of space. You can be very productive on trains and they let you rest or sleep, which is a big deal, especially if you've just been flying a long way and might have jet lag or no chance to sleep. Driving completely takes your attention and requires that you be able to control your sleep schedule before and after.
While true, your perspective is skewed by access. He lives in the center of the country where there is zero infrastructure.
Well, I also look at the trip that JB took last fall. JB spent many hours on the train, I think it was several more hours than it would have been if he drove.
But all of the things you mention, Scott, are definitely true.
Trains definitely seem like a great idea in highly dense population areas, I'm thinking the east coast of the US and large city to large city in Europe, but high speed is also a pretty big requirement for normal use.
I was looking at taking a train from Germany to Italy, it would have taken 36 hours+. Compared to flying that was 6 hours. They can both suffer from delays, so that's a wash.
This is where I say if you have time to give away to travel, fine, great, take the train, but if you don't and a faster option exists, take it.
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@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@JaredBusch said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
Trains are for those with nothing else to do...
Actually, quite the opposite. On the train you have Internet, power and plenty of space. You can be very productive on trains and they let you rest or sleep, which is a big deal, especially if you've just been flying a long way and might have jet lag or no chance to sleep. Driving completely takes your attention and requires that you be able to control your sleep schedule before and after.
While true, your perspective is skewed by access. He lives in the center of the country where there is zero infrastructure.
His reference was specifically about the NYC to Rochester run. Which is a long, boring five or six hour drive. The train, when good, does it in the same time. When bad is a few hours longer, but with time to rest and work if needed.
My reference was two things, the trip JB made last year and my considered trip from Germany to Italy.
In JB's case, If I recall correctly, he was on overnight trains, so it was less of an issue, he might have gotten some sleep on the train.
And the 36 hour train ride while on vacation for me definitely would have included sleeping, but would have keep me from an extra day of exploring Rome. After making that trip 3-4 times I could see giving up a day to the train for a change of pace, and the fact that I've probably explored most of Rome by now, so I'm spending myself doing something else.
In general I don't vacation for chill time, and that's what I see a train as - chill time.
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@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@JaredBusch said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@JaredBusch said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
Trains are for those with nothing else to do...
Actually, quite the opposite. On the train you have Internet, power and plenty of space. You can be very productive on trains and they let you rest or sleep, which is a big deal, especially if you've just been flying a long way and might have jet lag or no chance to sleep. Driving completely takes your attention and requires that you be able to control your sleep schedule before and after.
While true, your perspective is skewed by access. He lives in the center of the country where there is zero infrastructure.
His reference was specifically about the NYC to Rochester run. Which is a long, boring five or six hour drive. The train, when good, does it in the same time. When bad is a few hours longer, but with time to rest and work if needed.
The discussion was around that run, but his statement was blanket. Not about that run.
Well generally the statement can't be true either. As a blanket statement it's wrong. It can be true if you live somewhere not serviced by a train or want to go somewhere not serviced by the same run, of course. But when you are going places that the train goes, it's untrue. So in this specific case, it's patently backwards. As a blanket statement, it is always untrue in that it is only sometimes true. In the same way, you could say airplanes are for people with spare time if you don't live by an airport. Or cars are if you don't own one and have to rent one every time.
There are train lines that run through Omaha. I can get a train from Omaha to Chicago, at a travel time of something like 10 hours or more. Driving takes 7 hours, and flying is under 2 hours, even if you toss in the one hour early arrival (all needed in Omaha) now you're at 3 hours instead of 7 or 10.
I have no idea how prevalent high speed trains are on the east coast? If they are there, then I would probably seriously look at train travel instead of air. That's simply not an option from central USA. Heck I don't think there is one from LA to SF.
In stark contrast, the train between London and Paris. It's about 2 hours, and first class tix where very close in price to flying coach. Though it didn't include internet access when we took it, but did allow much more comfort. Oh, and that 2 hours, is actually less time than you would spend in the UK airport and flight considering security checkthrough, etc. So yeah, the train is definitely the way to go!
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@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
@JaredBusch said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
Trains are for those with nothing else to do...
Actually, quite the opposite. On the train you have Internet, power and plenty of space. You can be very productive on trains and they let you rest or sleep, which is a big deal, especially if you've just been flying a long way and might have jet lag or no chance to sleep. Driving completely takes your attention and requires that you be able to control your sleep schedule before and after.
While true, your perspective is skewed by access. He lives in the center of the country where there is zero infrastructure.
Well, I also look at the trip that JB took last fall. JB spent many hours on the train, I think it was several more hours than it would have been if he drove.
But all of the things you mention, Scott, are definitely true.
Trains definitely seem like a great idea in highly dense population areas, I'm thinking the east coast of the US and large city to large city in Europe, but high speed is also a pretty big requirement for normal use.
I was looking at taking a train from Germany to Italy, it would have taken 36 hours+. Compared to flying that was 6 hours. They can both suffer from delays, so that's a wash.
This is where I say if you have time to give away to travel, fine, great, take the train, but if you don't and a faster option exists, take it.
Yes, but I too have taken that train and you can get a hotel room on it (Germany to Italy). So in many ways, it saves time. All depends on if you see time "on the ground" as the only value or if you see productive time as valuable. Flights and cars use up tons of your free time in logistics. Trains might be slower to very far away destinations (not what we were discussing here) but even decently far can be more practical if your time is valuable.
Look at my latest trip from Rome to Siracusa by train. Eleven hours. A total waste of time, right? Well, except going to the airport is $100 and takes almost an hour in Rome. Going to the train station is $14 and takes five minutes. Airport, we need to be there two hours early to make our flight and are often delayed a few hours. Train, arrive minutes before, delays are rarely more than a few minutes. Airport, we arrive hours from our destination. Train drops us off walking distance away. The train took a real eleven hours (and a few minutes.) The plane sounds fast, but is two hours at the airport, a huge ordeal of security, lots of risks of cancellations (weather in winter), an hour or two in the air, then an hour or more (up to four for us) to get our luggage at the other end, then finding some other form of transportation to get us to the final destination. Even an eleven hour train ride might have been faster than a plane. Probably not, but it's close.
You are using "ridiculous edge cases" to say that trains aren't practical when we are discussing a case where they are. If you did the same thing with airplanes and tried to take an airplane between next door cities, airplanes would seem insane as it would take all day to go walking distance.
Each is appropriate for the right use case at the right place. When trains work, few things compete. BUt you have to be going where they go and coming from where they come from. But that's the case we are discussing. So saying that trains are for the lazy or those that don't value their time is totally untrue. It's one of a number of tools for those that value their time the most.
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@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
I have no idea how prevalent high speed trains are on the east coast? If they are there, then I would probably seriously look at train travel instead of air. That's simply not an option from central USA. Heck I don't think there is one from LA to SF.
You can't realistically beat the train by much from JFK to Rochester. Taking a car has a long rental time, flying has a long logistical time. It's too close for trains to not work. Even the slow 112mph normal trains in NY are fast enough to make other things not look that good. Is it the fastest? No, if you try hard you can beat it with other methods - but only by sacrificing your time in transit and only to beat it by a small amount.
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@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
Heck I don't think there is one from LA to SF.
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@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
And the 36 hour train ride while on vacation for me definitely would have included sleeping, but would have keep me from an extra day of exploring Rome.
Having done that in that part of the world several times, we opt for the "slower" train or ferry nearly every time. The ease of being dropped off right downtown, getting all of your food and accommodations included and handled is a big deal too. Instead of wasting time in Rome looking for that quick food and get to the hotel, get checked in, get the lay of the land after dealing with flying... you get time to relax, collect yourself, sleep, eat, be all rested and prepared for exploring upon arrival. We do it regularly and while you are right, it's not always the right way to go, it's far, far better than people think it will be.
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@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
I have no idea how prevalent high speed trains are on the east coast? If they are there, then I would probably seriously look at train travel instead of air. That's simply not an option from central USA. Heck I don't think there is one from LA to SF.
You can't realistically beat the train by much from JFK to Rochester. Taking a car has a long rental time, flying has a long logistical time. It's too close for trains to not work. Even the slow 112mph normal trains in NY are fast enough to make other things not look that good. Is it the fastest? No, if you try hard you can beat it with other methods - but only by sacrificing your time in transit and only to beat it by a small amount.
You're right, I was making the statement from my own experience. and the train from Germany to italy, or the train from Omaha to Chicago or Omaha to Denver. these are all only for travel for those with extra time.
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@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
This is where I say if you have time to give away to travel, fine, great, take the train, but if you don't and a faster option exists, take it.
Also important, you are using a tourist situation and applying it to a work one. But even then, I think you miss some important points.
But for work (in IT especially) the train is nearly all time to read and work if you want. Flights and driving, not so much. It's time to charge devices, catch up on tasks, etc. It can be super productive time. I love working on Amtrak. So if your "time" is time to be productive, trains have a huge advantage that you are overlooking.
If for travel, you say you'd lose time exploring Rome, true. But you would gain time seeing huge portions of the world that connect the two. One of the reasons that we value trains specifically when traveling is that it helps us to mentally connect the places that we have been and to understand the transitions between them. I've been continuously from the north of England to the bottom tip of Sicily and to central Morocco in Africa, for example. And from Lisbon to Vienna. And only a tiny gap of 200 miles or so before thousands of more miles that I've continuously connected. I see Europe, from your example, as a continuous whole, because of trains and ferries, and not cities to teleport into and out of without a clear connection between the places.
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@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
Well, except going to the airport is $100 and takes almost an hour in Rome.
$100? huh, it's doubled since 2013. It was $50 for my wife and I to get a cab to the airport.
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@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
Well, except going to the airport is $100 and takes almost an hour in Rome.
$100? huh, it's doubled since 2013. It was $50 for my wife and I to get a cab to the airport.
Wasn't quite $100 but it was close. AIrport to the Colosseum area.
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But you tip cabs, you don't tip trains
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@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
And the 36 hour train ride while on vacation for me definitely would have included sleeping, but would have keep me from an extra day of exploring Rome.
Having done that in that part of the world several times, we opt for the "slower" train or ferry nearly every time. The ease of being dropped off right downtown, getting all of your food and accommodations included and handled is a big deal too. Instead of wasting time in Rome looking for that quick food and get to the hotel, get checked in, get the lay of the land after dealing with flying... you get time to relax, collect yourself, sleep, eat, be all rested and prepared for exploring upon arrival. We do it regularly and while you are right, it's not always the right way to go, it's far, far better than people think it will be.
Well you started this by stating something I already mentioned - the number of times making the trip. I might also opt for the train after that many trips, the desire to get where you're going becomes less important. And assuming you have internet access, you can still work during that time, so if your office allows it, you don't loose a day of vacation during travel, because you are working.
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@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
And the 36 hour train ride while on vacation for me definitely would have included sleeping, but would have keep me from an extra day of exploring Rome.
Having done that in that part of the world several times, we opt for the "slower" train or ferry nearly every time. The ease of being dropped off right downtown, getting all of your food and accommodations included and handled is a big deal too. Instead of wasting time in Rome looking for that quick food and get to the hotel, get checked in, get the lay of the land after dealing with flying... you get time to relax, collect yourself, sleep, eat, be all rested and prepared for exploring upon arrival. We do it regularly and while you are right, it's not always the right way to go, it's far, far better than people think it will be.
Well you started this by stating something I already mentioned - the number of times making the trip. I might also opt for the train after that many trips, the desire to get where you're going becomes less important. And assuming you have internet access, you can still work during that time, so if your office allows it, you don't loose a day of vacation during travel, because you are working.
Even the first time. What makes the destination more important than the journey?
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@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
@scottalanmiller said in MangoCon 2017:
@Dashrender said in MangoCon 2017:
And the 36 hour train ride while on vacation for me definitely would have included sleeping, but would have keep me from an extra day of exploring Rome.
Having done that in that part of the world several times, we opt for the "slower" train or ferry nearly every time. The ease of being dropped off right downtown, getting all of your food and accommodations included and handled is a big deal too. Instead of wasting time in Rome looking for that quick food and get to the hotel, get checked in, get the lay of the land after dealing with flying... you get time to relax, collect yourself, sleep, eat, be all rested and prepared for exploring upon arrival. We do it regularly and while you are right, it's not always the right way to go, it's far, far better than people think it will be.
Well you started this by stating something I already mentioned - the number of times making the trip. I might also opt for the train after that many trips, the desire to get where you're going becomes less important. And assuming you have internet access, you can still work during that time, so if your office allows it, you don't loose a day of vacation during travel, because you are working.
Even the first time. What makes the destination more important than the journey?
I guess I don't value the scenery of the travel equally to the destination.
