I am defeated
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@scottalanmiller "I guess that that is the big question. Whose rules or what rules are being broken? Can you give an example?"
Sure. I got into a fight with Anton just the other day about Starwind. You can read about it here.
The long story short is that I created a Starwind configuration that was unsupported. I did so for rational reasons. At the time, this was literally the only way to get what I needed to do done and meet the various requirements on the table. (Which don't need going into, nor am I going to rehash a 1.5 year old build at this juncture.)
I knew at the time of the build that Starwind didn't support storage heavy setups. Sure enough, I paid for it. The damned thing ate some LUNs. I had about 6 months of fighting with the damned thing tooth and nail before I got it stable.
It isn't running a config that is supported by Microsoft or by Starwind. I know that. I also know there aren't any real good choices for this client. Now that it's stable, i expect to see 6 years of service from this thing, but here are rules being broken in order to do what "shouldn't" be done with what's to hand.
Another good example is running ESXi free in production. You're not supposed to. There are a whole bunch of reasons. But in many cases there aren't really any good alternatives. (Though with the ecosystems around Hyper-V and KVM picking up and delivering free or low-cost solutions that is rapidly changing.)
I run hyperconverged setups on d-link switches. Vendors hate this and say it's unsupported because they haven't profiled d-link switches. I do it because I know they've profiled Dell Powerconnects and other broadcom-based switches and the Dlink stuff is the same silicon for a fifth the price. (With a tenth the features.)
Or the number of companies that - instead of a proper firewall like a Barracuda or Palo Alto Networks box - I run a Netgear WDNR3700v2 with OpenWRT and some modes I coded myself.
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@cakeis_not_alie said:
Another good example is running ESXi free in production. You're not supposed to. .
I guess, but tons of people recommend that all of the time in SW and, probably, here but less traffic here. I see it several times a week, maybe once a day.
There are good reasons not to run it, HyperV offers a backup API, XenServer is more full features at that price - once you give up the backup API why not use XenServer?
But those are just options that should come up. If you need a free virtualization product there is nothing wrong with ESXi as long as you are cognizant of the backup implications.
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@lance "The biggest issue I have seen in non-profit IT is the issue of having enough staff. I think almost any non-profit or for profit IT guy that you work with could relate to this."
They could, if they weren't vicious slave drivers. None of the sysadmins I know escape our tour at the helm. We all have our assigned tasks for the ecosystem. I'm a prototyping specialist, so I design the new system builds. Peter does the virtual appliance images. Nathan does the firewall configs...
I'm pretty sure the non-profit admins just sit in their lairs coordinating all their for-profit friends to extract maximum free labour from them.
But I don't mind. It keeps the clan together. And we need to share resources across the clan if we are to survive.
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Other than pushback from vendors, are you really seeing the things that you are mentioning get pushback in the communities? These sound like normal things to me. People like @John-Nicholson and I promote cheap switch alternatives all of the time, for example. I get very little pushback on that. Maybe because I'm more forceful about why it is a good idea? Maybe I present it with a bit more "heading them off at the pass" explanation to make it hard to push back on me?
Not sure why but the things you mention are things that I say all of the time and don't get negative feedback on. Vendors, of course, would push back because they have money to be made. But I spend very little time in a situation where a vendor is going to provide me feedback and those that do quickly end up with management issues.
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@scottalanmiller "Other than pushback from vendors, are you really seeing the things that you are mentioning get pushback in the communities? These sound like normal things to me. People like @John-Nicholson and I promote cheap switch alternatives all of the time, for example. I get very little pushback on that. Maybe because I'm more forceful about why it is a good idea? Maybe I present it with a bit more "heading them off at the pass" explanation to make it hard to push back on me?"
No, SAM, you don't get pushback because you're SAM. There's a difference between you and hoi polloi.
But yes, I get a LOT of pushback from "regular" types. John himself actually being something of a regular example. He never hesitates to tell me how I am breaking some design rule or other and that's horrible. But at least he doesn't follow it up with the personal attacks so we grudgingly get along.
Some people I can write off because they "orbit" vendors. (A bit like John orbits Anton, in fact.) They lap up anything a particular vendor has to say and regurgitate it. But there are a bunch that simply were trained to believe in one particular way of doing things and they are absolute bullies about it to anyone that doesn't believe.
One good example would be having said something to the effect of "hey, I need to ABC, XYZ and it can't use Server 2012 or Windows 8." wham 50 trolls out of nowhere telling you a magical tale about how you're a failure at everything because you aren't using the latest greatest and how this was putting your customers at a disadvantage and so forth.
Or anything networking. Cisco is apparently the answer to everything. If the answer isn't Cisco you're going straight to hell. Oh $deity I am sick of that one.
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Most recently the cloud evangelists have been driving me nuts. Apparently anything below a 6 digit a year IT budget should just be using the cloud. We've all heard it. Just never mention privacy or data sovereignty or laws around privacy. Because then they'll outright attack you.Good times.
I don't quite know how to be much more "firm" in my conversations. You know me: I'm a hardass. I say "look, I need to do ABC but have rejected LMNOPQRSTUV as options and really don't want to go into the why of it. Let's focus on how to solve ABC without LMNOPQRSTU or V."
Inevitably it will descend into a massive shitfest of why I am doomed to die the death for not choosing one of L-V which then will collapse into a singularity as vendors for L-V then fight it out over who is best. Some of which will actually message me hate mail. (As will some of their acolytes.)
I have ended up deleting more than a few threads because of this.
Some of this is probably just nerd rage. Linux! Mac! PC! or Intel! AMD! But...isn't that what Tom's Hardware's forums are for? A place to jettison that baggage would be grand.
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Yes, there is a ton of nerd rage, vendor follow ons and the like. That's the nature of IT, I've learned. The vast majority of the field isn't looking for great solutions or looking to learn continuously. I think all fields are like this, IT is just more vocal and social.
I think that there is no escaping that. No good way to filter it. You have to just accept that when crowd sourcing ideas you are going to get a lot of "random voices from the crowd." Name any large gathering of anonymous or semi-anonymous people where you would welcome all opinions?
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G'Day you lot,
Going right back to the OP. I understand where you are coming from as I have spent most of my life on a shoestring budget.
A lot of IT is done by the young-uns that have been around for less time and have poorly formed attitudes to prove it.
I see a lot of class divisions mainly pushed by the IT-Teenagers (read know-it-alls) and the IT people that don't have people skills but are very good at what they do. This class system is goverened by the very thing that irks me about managerial type bods, Shiny-new-device Syndrome.
The hilariously disturbing thing about this is that you can see this attitude as plain as day in the school yard. You are all there for the same thing, you all go about it in different ways, some parents buy the kids more things, yet the spoilt brats are never satisfied. Don't let them get to you @cakeis_not_alie. They are living the high life because of someone elses monetary skill, their house of cards fall.
I find most of the class issue is because a lot IT people can't grasp the following:
- Different business, different needs
- Money doesn't resolve your isssues
- Enterprise IT is fundamentally different to SMB IT
I'm sure that I don't need to cover those points in any detail as you and the rest of the community have all displayed various levels of understanding of these points.
I would personally preferr to McGuyver a solution for a small shop/department than spend money that isn't available, just because it's "best practice" or a neater solution. Sometimes what needs to be done and what can be done aren't the same thing.
I find it hard to understand how IT Pro's, who are supposed to be good at grasping concepts, can't grasp the concept that someone elses world doesn't work the same as theirs. Perhaps, I observed the wrong crowd (not here but else where) or perhaps they are the majority now.
The attitudes held by some IT pro's are s useful (and smelly) as ill-tempered, mutated sea bass.
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@scottalanmiller "Name any large gathering of anonymous or semi-anonymous people where you would welcome all opinions?"
Well, okay, fair enough. But I am not really looking for an anonymous or semi-anonymous gathering, I guess. I'm looking for something a little bit more grown up than an anti-scientology protest become vendor love-in. What's wrong with a place we put our real names to our words and live by them? You and I do it. Good or bad, our idiocy - and our brilliance - are on public record.
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@cakeis_not_alie What you are looking for is not found on ther Interent.
That's real world stuff for real people.Real people in a virtual world struggle. Most of the people presented to you are only as deep as your monitor.
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@nadnerB said:
I find it hard to understand how IT Pro's, who are supposed to be good at grasping concepts, can't grasp the concept that someone elses world doesn't work the same as theirs. Perhaps, I observed the wrong crowd (not here but else where) or perhaps they are the majority now.
They rather feel like the majority to me. Though I can accept that this could be me being crazy.
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@nadnerB "What you are looking for is not found on ther Interent.
That's real world stuff for real people.Real people in a virtual world struggle. Most of the people presented to you are only as deep as your monitor."
I don't know about that. SAM has his moments.
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@cakeis_not_alie said:
@nadnerB "What you are looking for is not found on ther Interent.
That's real world stuff for real people.Real people in a virtual world struggle. Most of the people presented to you are only as deep as your monitor."
I don't know about that. SAM has his moments.
lol, I did say "most people"
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@cakeis_not_alie by the way, you are wrong.
You are not defeated. You are deflated. Big difference.
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@nadnerB I thought SAM was "people". As in a collection of individuals that make up his post count. DOOM!
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Do voices in my head count as multiple people?
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@scottalanmiller "Do voices in my head count as multiple people?"
Only if they come with individual alcohol preferences.
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And they do!
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@cakeis_not_alie
A shoestring budget to me is a complete lack of funds in a company (probably meaning that the company is near bankruptcy - perhaps not). Everything else you described about making your solutions work are, like Scott mentioned, you being a good IT admin. It sounds like you are acquiring the funds you REALLY need. I was under the impression that you were going to management for NEEDS and you weren't getting those needs covered, but instead you getting them covered, which is awesome, that shows your skill as a negotiator. It's true that perhaps you shouldn't have to try as hard as you do, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.As for the whitepaper talk - I don't know about the rest around here, but I rarely hear about whitepaper/rules talk, not on ML. And I've never been lucky enough to work on the equipment you're talking about that really can pay attention to those rules.
I haven't spent much recent time on SW so I'm unfamiliar with your postings, your name to me here is pretty new. I look forward to future IT solution based discussions - it's one thing that's sorely lacking here on ML.
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@Dashrender said:
As for the whitepaper talk - I don't know about the rest around here, but I rarely hear about whitepaper/rules talk, not on ML. And I've never been lucky enough to work on the equipment you're talking about that really can pay attention to those rules.
I inquire about this type of thing whenever I am working with new products or services because seeing the responses will help me to decide how I want to handle it for my client.
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@cakeis_not_alie I fire clients that refuse to see IT as an integral part of their company. I do not want to work for them.
It does technically mean, that I only want clients that will spend money. Of course it does and it should. I am not running a charity. I am running a consultancy.
That does not mean I only want clients to spend money without thought. I present at least three solutions to any situation.
- The option that I feel will best work for the client knowing their stated business goal. Cost is only a factor of the decision, this option is sometimes the cheapest, sometimes not..
- A second option that I feel should work but has some kind of catch generally lower in cost than option 1 because of the catch.
- The option to do nothing and a discussion of the cost of doing nothing.
