Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds
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Anyone who believes in ITT Tech needs to be ignored immediately.
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@DustinB3403 said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
Anyone who believes in ITT Tech needs to be ignored immediately.
There's a thread, actually a couple, on SW where I criticise ITT Tech and people say things like:
So what because I went to ITT Tech I am inferior to you in some way? I have personally studied IT at 4 different Universities, not to mention what I learn while I was in the military and I can tell you personally, besides the military, ITT Tech was the only place that provided hands on training and cut out all the crap people did not need to work in this field.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that ITT Tech is super expensive, scam is a bit harsh I think but expensive, yes absolutely. Just because I spent double what others may have spent does not mean my education was not a good one.
And a whole lot of just whining that someone dare question ITT Tech's value and that because they got something out of it at two or three times the price of a community college or trade school that I must be crazy or hate my job or my life to dare question it. The level of narcissistic rage, ironic anti-intellectualism, and inferiority complexes is pretty amazing. In one of the threads someone threatened to kick my ass for questioning their "education." Claiming I'm a user and I hate IT/IT people and can't help others so I'm angry inside, yet not getting I have a high spice level because I help people.
Not to mention the Tumblr-level of "boohoo you're making generalisations about IT people!" primarily because I point out that a lot of IT people have huge, undeserved egos, so naturally the response was to say that I'm wrong, it's a generalisation and they're actually pretty awesome at IT and kick ass 24/7.
Then ITT Tech went bankrupt and a lot of people had to come to the realisation it was just a scam. You'd think the fact they spent a ton of money to get an entry level position (even ITT Tech says that latter part in their commercials) would show the education had essentially no value at all.
I said straight up ITT Tech looked bad and most people didn't take it seriously, I was straight forward, honest, and up front as someone who has hired a lot of people and purposely ignored résumés with ITT Tech... that made me "rude." Sorry I wasn't going to sugarcoat a scam. And people started projecting and bitching saying "Oh you're calling me ignorant/stupid/underskilled/etc" even though I literally never say that. I think they say it because that's how they feel, not because of what I said, no matter the fact that in all those threads I repeatedly say I didn't make judgements on them, just the "school." People know it's garbage, they just don't want to hear it, and when they do it must be because it's a personal attack, even when I'm not even speaking to them.
Going to ITT Tech doesn't make anyone ignorant or unskilled or stupid, because sometimes people make mistakes, they go other places, they learn on the job, etc. but when they put their whole skill level into just ITT Tech and then if someone question it they see it as a personal attack, that's just being delusional and realising that maybe you are underskilled and that's why you think it's personal.
I feel like someone who went to ITT Tech then got a real job, and learned things, probably wouldn't tell anyone (publicly) they ever went to ITT Tech once they realised their entry level job they spent tens of thousands of dollars on taught them more in a week than they learned with their "hands on" ITT Tech "education". If they don't do that, then I just await the whining, complaining, delusions, and projections of their internal issues onto me for daring question their dumb ass school.
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@tonyshowoff I wasn't expecting a wall of text.
I agree with your stance
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California has been driving the middle class and upper middle class away for years. You either need to make a lot of money or be government subsidized to be able to live there in most cases.
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I just read article again and realized they are specifically saying everyone but technology workers are getting a decrease. So that means IT jobs are getting increased while everything else is losing.
I hate to be thus guy... But it boils down to economics of a specific area. Obviously the demand in silicone Valley is for IT. In area that is so dense with geeks who work long hours, it's not surprising local businesses may have to pay less. The amount of online shopping for everything including things like liquor mentioned on the article must be extremely high.
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@IRJ said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
I just read article again and realized they are specifically saying everyone but technology workers are getting a decrease. So that means IT jobs are getting increased while everything else is losing.
I hate to be thus guy... But it boils down to economics of a specific area. Obviously the demand in silicone Valley is for IT. In area that is so dense with geeks who work long hours, it's not surprising local businesses may have to pay less. The amount of online shopping for everything including things like liquor mentioned on the article must be extremely high.
Interesting, I just read an article that said that IT people (and likely all people working in silicone valley) are paid something like 17% less than they were 20 years ago, even though profits in this same area (profits of the companies in this area) are up something like 70%. I guess the companies gave great starting wages, but then give nearly no raises... but that's only a guess.
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@Dashrender said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
@IRJ said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
I just read article again and realized they are specifically saying everyone but technology workers are getting a decrease. So that means IT jobs are getting increased while everything else is losing.
I hate to be thus guy... But it boils down to economics of a specific area. Obviously the demand in silicone Valley is for IT. In area that is so dense with geeks who work long hours, it's not surprising local businesses may have to pay less. The amount of online shopping for everything including things like liquor mentioned on the article must be extremely high.
Interesting, I just read an article that said that IT people (and likely all people working in silicone valley) are paid something like 17% less than they were 20 years ago, even though profits in this same area (profits of the companies in this area) are up something like 70%. I guess the companies gave great starting wages, but then give nearly no raises... but that's only a guess.
That's how most companies I'm familiar with do. If you want to be paid what your worth, you generally have to move jobs often.
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@travisdh1 said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
@Dashrender said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
@IRJ said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
I just read article again and realized they are specifically saying everyone but technology workers are getting a decrease. So that means IT jobs are getting increased while everything else is losing.
I hate to be thus guy... But it boils down to economics of a specific area. Obviously the demand in silicone Valley is for IT. In area that is so dense with geeks who work long hours, it's not surprising local businesses may have to pay less. The amount of online shopping for everything including things like liquor mentioned on the article must be extremely high.
Interesting, I just read an article that said that IT people (and likely all people working in silicone valley) are paid something like 17% less than they were 20 years ago, even though profits in this same area (profits of the companies in this area) are up something like 70%. I guess the companies gave great starting wages, but then give nearly no raises... but that's only a guess.
That's how most companies I'm familiar with do. If you want to be paid what your worth, you generally have to move jobs often.
Or you can just stop growing and keep your wage where it is. Then you automatically are paid what you are worth. Life hacks
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I cant read the article because of my ad blocker. Eventually I'd like to find a site wide solution, instead of the browser based solution.
Does it list any specifics? I have always wondered where I stood in the IT industry. I feel like an outsider a lot, because I have no formal training, nor have I worked with any other IT people. I only have a vague idea of what my job duties would be considered if I worked at a larger company, and how my salary compares to industry normals. When you add the differences in cost of living, it just makes it even more murky.
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@Donahue said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
Eventually I'd like to find a site wide solution
For ad blocking? Pi-hole does that I believe
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@wirestyle22 said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
@Donahue said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
Eventually I'd like to find a site wide solution
For ad blocking? Pi-hole does that I believe
yeah, its on my todo list, just down towards the bottom.
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@IRJ said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
I just read article again and realized they are specifically saying everyone but technology workers are getting a decrease. So that means IT jobs are getting increased while everything else is losing.
I hate to be thus guy... But it boils down to economics of a specific area. Obviously the demand in silicone Valley is for IT. In area that is so dense with geeks who work long hours, it's not surprising local businesses may have to pay less. The amount of online shopping for everything including things like liquor mentioned on the article must be extremely high.
I just hope the IT in Silicone Valley start paying up for the Sanitation employees or they will be in a deep pile of S%&*! (pun intended)
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@wirestyle22 said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
@travisdh1 said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
@Dashrender said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
@IRJ said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
I just read article again and realized they are specifically saying everyone but technology workers are getting a decrease. So that means IT jobs are getting increased while everything else is losing.
I hate to be thus guy... But it boils down to economics of a specific area. Obviously the demand in silicone Valley is for IT. In area that is so dense with geeks who work long hours, it's not surprising local businesses may have to pay less. The amount of online shopping for everything including things like liquor mentioned on the article must be extremely high.
Interesting, I just read an article that said that IT people (and likely all people working in silicone valley) are paid something like 17% less than they were 20 years ago, even though profits in this same area (profits of the companies in this area) are up something like 70%. I guess the companies gave great starting wages, but then give nearly no raises... but that's only a guess.
That's how most companies I'm familiar with do. If you want to be paid what your worth, you generally have to move jobs often.
Or you can just stop growing and keep your wage where it is. Then you automatically are paid what you are worth. Life hacks
No, if you stop increasing you wage, you are getting paid less.
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@tonyshowoff said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
Nine out of every 10 Silicon Valley jobs pays less now than when Netflix first launched in 1997, despite one of the nation's strongest economic booms and a historically low unemployment rate that outpaces the national average.
Can we clarify something? Wages DO NOT EQUAL Total Compensation.
Wages may be stagnant, but that doesn't mean compensation isn't up! (FWIW mine are not, and the raises for the time I've worked for a Vally Company they exceed inflation).So If my base pay is said 100K, but they give me 50K in stock every year on a 4 year vestment schedule (1 year cliff, quarterly thereafter), then at the end of 4 years assuming the stock doesn't go up or down I"m looking at 300K in compensation tied to me staying there year over year.
Now let us say the stock goes up (Many Silicon Valley companies are hypergrowth companies). Lets say it doubles after the first year. Now that first grant is worth 100K instead of 50K (so 25K per year instead of 12.5K per year). So my first 365 days take home is now 125K at vest cliff. Lets also say the company is doing well and a variable bonus is paid out at 25% of the base so I'm at 150K on that 100K in base wages. Not bad? Now year two, let's say it doubles again. Now that first grant is going to deliver 50K per year, and the second grant will deliver 25K so I'm at 175K before bonus. This can continue to rise as long as the stock goes up (which can be stupid amounts for some companies) or as long as the RSU's keep getting refreshed every year (until whatever the RSU age limit is, so say 4 years). At this point, the base salary is a joke compared to the stock compensation. Now let's say I'm kicking ass and my companies becoming less popular, or the stock isn't doing anything fun and another cool company comes along and wants to hire me? They are not going to pay me 300K a year, but what they will do is offer me an even bigger pile of RSU's to offset the giant pile I have at vestment ( as well as the company is the next big thing so I can ride this mountain back up).
Also if I enrolled in ESPP and maxed it out at 15K for the year, that means if it doubles I got 30K in stock for 12.75K in post-tax money (assuming RSU's are bought at a 15% discount).
Now here's another scam... If I hold those RSU's and ESPP for a year from vestment (not a good idea initially for someone with low diversification, but for senior people not uncommon) then I can get taxed on that at Long-term capital gains rates rather than income tax rates. If I'm in a state that has it's own income tax structure (California, North Carolina) this delta can be massive. This tax dodge right here, and the fact that the company can pay you tomorrow, with a cheaper per $ asset today (Stock) is why wages are not going up. Given the choice between being paid 200K in cash, or 100K in cash, and 200K in stock that costs 50K today what muppet would want higher wages to pay more taxes on, and what company would want to burn more cash now on compensation?
Throw in the fact that companies will report "non-GAAP earnings" where they exclude forward stock liabilities (which is bullshit, but I digress) the company can look to outside investors to be more profitable than it is, but taking the stock compensation method.
@DustinB3403 said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
To be fair, a lot of them likely do make a ton of money, just not for the area. But when a 1000 sq ft house cost $400,000 on the median your 6 figure paycheck is a joke.
Work for a Silicon Valley company, but do it while remote in a low-cost state. The ultimate scam.
The other thing that's annoying here is the use of Wages in this article. Wages are pay per hour. Salary is differnet (It's the pay tied to what is quoted per year and broken down for non-hourly work, or the sum).
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@tonyshowoff said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
Well, I remember when a good engineer could make $125K a year, now they're lucky if they make $60K. In IT it's roughly a similar drop, but even lower, most IT guys I know make around $40K, some as low as $20K. That's just nationally. Obviously certain markets like Silicon Valley, New York, etc will be shift upward, but the difference is seemingly the same
A Good "Engineer" can still make 125K.
As far as software developers the BLS reports a median pay of 103K per year for 2016.
Network and Systems Administrator median pay for 2017 is $81,100.The BLS tracks trending and historical data, and they show that these professions have outperformed the market, and have a forward projection to keep doing so.
I'm not saying the data points you have are anecdotes, but I"m curious why your sample size doesn't correlate with what the federal department whose job it is to track these things?
I will note that pay for SMB IT has gone to crap, but it was never that good to begin with. The majority of IT jobs are in enterprises (because large companies have small armies of people).
And I'm totally disregarding all those people on SW, especially those who threatened to kick my ass for pointing out ITT Tech was a scam, who claim they make $80K+ working at a local doctor's office or credit union
Doctor office IT is disappearing as private practices go away. Many are being absorbed into larger hospital systems (who have large central VDI teams etc), those that don't tend to 100% outsource their EMR, and people like Cerner become their MSP. Now Credit Unions and Regional Banks can still pay reasonable IT wages FWIW. There's a lot of trust and compliance in these sectors and while the smaller ones outsource the core financial platforms, there's still a lot of nitty-gritty stuff that needs to be done right or risk money/fines. 80K there isn't unreasonable.
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@pmoncho said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
I just hope the IT in Silicone Valley start paying up for the Sanitation employees or they will be in a deep pile of S%&*! (pun intended)
Government employees in the bay make decent money, but it's the pensions that are bankrupting some of the smaller cities.
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The stock options idea sounds good as long as the company's value keeps ratching up. That's what makes it a scam in my mind. If it was a sure thing, why wouldn't the company just keep the stock and sell some when it needs cash.
What I don't understand about that whole stock thing - are the employees only allowed to sell it back to the company? If so - well that's still a win for the company - they got to keep the cash while the employee just gets this piece of paper claiming to have value, which it does as long as the company is healthy, but if it hickups or fails, the employee is boned.
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@Dashrender said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
The stock options idea sounds good as long as the company's value keeps ratching up. That's what makes it a scam in my mind. If it was a sure thing, why wouldn't the company just keep the stock and sell some when it needs cash.
What I don't understand about that whole stock thing - are the employees only allowed to sell it back to the company? If so - well that's still a win for the company - they got to keep the cash while the employee just gets this piece of paper claiming to have value, which it does as long as the company is healthy, but if it hickups or fails, the employee is boned.
Happens to all companies, but that is why you sell at vestment, (or a year later tax vs risk depending). You diversify.
Most SV companies like this last beyond the initial vestment period for their stock options.
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@JaredBusch said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
@Dashrender said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
The stock options idea sounds good as long as the company's value keeps ratching up. That's what makes it a scam in my mind. If it was a sure thing, why wouldn't the company just keep the stock and sell some when it needs cash.
What I don't understand about that whole stock thing - are the employees only allowed to sell it back to the company? If so - well that's still a win for the company - they got to keep the cash while the employee just gets this piece of paper claiming to have value, which it does as long as the company is healthy, but if it hickups or fails, the employee is boned.
Happens to all companies, but that is why you sell at vestment, (or a year later tax vs risk depending). You diversify.
Most SV companies like this last beyond the initial vestment period for their stock options.
I'm not sure if you know that Most do or not - I have a friend who got in bed with a company - paid almost entirely in stock, lost his ass when the company folded 2 years later.
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@StorageNinja said in Nine Out of Every 10 Silicon Valley Jobs Pays Less Than In 1997, Report Finds:
A Good "Engineer" can still make 125K.
That wasn't an inflation adjusted amount, so technically they're still making less value even if they are making the same amount. Plus if I'm in Silicon Valley or New York or whatever, it's just good enough, but my point was that it was nationally that good, now it's not. I lived in the Bay Area back in the mid-90s and it was out of control back then. You can make a bit more so long as you're living in a place that costs a lot more. So it's meaningless to me how well the jobs there are paying when my point was the loss has been pretty large since then. And @Dashrender already pointed out above there's a general drop of wages, and I even posted about it in News [rhetorical point since you're here].
So what I can get paid the same, possibly a bit more than I did 20 years ago, but because of inflation it's actually still less no matter what and because of the places where I can get it now I'll have to spend almost all of it just trying to live in the area? That sounds like a bad deal to me and all the promises of stock options, profit sharing, etc are just ways to try to make up for the fact they're making more while you're making less.
