DragonBox, Streaming Services, and Copyright
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@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
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@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
The getaway driver is only a criminal IF the others rob the bank. So if you own this device, pure ownership does not make you a criminal, any more than owning a hammer makes you one because you can rob a jewelry store using it.
Is it bad - sure, does it make one more likely to pirate, again sure. But just because it's possible doesn't make it wrong.
Now all that said, if I recall correctly, the courts seem (sadly) to be siding with what appears to be your train of thought - if the item's primary reason for existing is to aid in the breaking of the law - well then that makes the makers of the item criminals... /sigh
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@dashrender I understand your thought process, and yes the device could be used to watch purely free and OTA television.
The biggest issue with this (at least from the marketing) is that it is actively helping people watch things that are subscription based.
Now one could argue that the subscription services need to better protect their content, but the reality is there would be no way for them to do this.
So the only approach that they have is to shutdown services/businesses that enable / lighten the workload to steal their content.
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@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
Then the gun, the car, all humans, the air we breath, water... everything is an accomplice. That logic doesn't work. Once "something can be used for a crime", all things are accomplices. Literally, everything.
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@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender I understand your thought process, and yes the device could be used to watch purely free and OTA television.
The biggest issue with this (at least from the marketing) is that it is actively helping people watch things that are subscription based.
Now one could argue that the subscription services need to better protect their content, but the reality is there would be no way for them to do this.
So the only approach that they have is to shutdown services/businesses that enable / lighten the workload to steal their content.
The marketing is the problem with DragonBox. I saw it somewhere and it DID seem to be saying that it did something illegal. But you REALLY have to dig into the ad and see if that is true. Just because it sounds illegal, doesn't mean that it is. If they have free subscription services offered, it might not be. I only saw it once, but the ad that I saw never mentioned a service that Dragon might not have access to.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
Then the gun, the car, all humans, the air we breath, water... everything is an accomplice. That logic doesn't work. Once "something can be used for a crime", all things are accomplices. Literally, everything.
The box in this case can be equated (and likely will) to Napster. Sure they weren't providing the content, they were just making the content easily searchable and retrievable.
You're making a SAM argument here when there is already precedence in cases like this.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender I understand your thought process, and yes the device could be used to watch purely free and OTA television.
The biggest issue with this (at least from the marketing) is that it is actively helping people watch things that are subscription based.
Now one could argue that the subscription services need to better protect their content, but the reality is there would be no way for them to do this.
So the only approach that they have is to shutdown services/businesses that enable / lighten the workload to steal their content.
The marketing is the problem with DragonBox. I saw it somewhere and it DID seem to be saying that it did something illegal. But you REALLY have to dig into the ad and see if that is true. Just because it sounds illegal, doesn't mean that it is. If they have free subscription services offered, it might not be. I only saw it once, but the ad that I saw never mentioned a service that Dragon might not have access to.
Marketing is often the reality. Now I've not used one of these units so I can't be certain, but if it is doing the same fundamental thing that Napster did, this will get shutdown.
Sharing content on a 1 off basis is just to tiny for corporations to chase or track. But when a platform comes along that pools all of these content shares into a simple, searchable location then it is easy to chase and track and subsequently shut down.
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@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
Then the gun, the car, all humans, the air we breath, water... everything is an accomplice. That logic doesn't work. Once "something can be used for a crime", all things are accomplices. Literally, everything.
The box in this case can be equated (and likely will) to Napster. Sure they weren't providing the content, they were just making the content easily searchable and retrievable.
You're making a SAM argument here when there is already precedence in cases like this.
Precedence doesn't make it right. I mentioned Napster already, and know the bought and paid for courts are just bowing to big business.
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@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
Then the gun, the car, all humans, the air we breath, water... everything is an accomplice. That logic doesn't work. Once "something can be used for a crime", all things are accomplices. Literally, everything.
The box in this case can be equated (and likely will) to Napster. Sure they weren't providing the content, they were just making the content easily searchable and retrievable.
You're making a SAM argument here when there is already precedence in cases like this.
Precedence doesn't make it right. I mentioned Napster already, and know the bought and paid for courts are just bowing to big business.
I get what you're trying to say, but precedence is the only item on which to balance these things. Damage is being done to the corporations (lost subscriptions) to this device.
They are entitled to restitution for this, which will likely put Dragon box out of business.
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@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender I understand your thought process, and yes the device could be used to watch purely free and OTA television.
The biggest issue with this (at least from the marketing) is that it is actively helping people watch things that are subscription based.
Now one could argue that the subscription services need to better protect their content, but the reality is there would be no way for them to do this.
So the only approach that they have is to shutdown services/businesses that enable / lighten the workload to steal their content.
Well, I don't really know what to tell you. Bad people exist. If you can't secure your business knowing this fact, then sadly, you don't deserve to be in business.
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@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
Then the gun, the car, all humans, the air we breath, water... everything is an accomplice. That logic doesn't work. Once "something can be used for a crime", all things are accomplices. Literally, everything.
The box in this case can be equated (and likely will) to Napster. Sure they weren't providing the content, they were just making the content easily searchable and retrievable.
You're making a SAM argument here when there is already precedence in cases like this.
Precedence doesn't make it right. I mentioned Napster already, and know the bought and paid for courts are just bowing to big business.
I get what you're trying to say, but precedence is the only item on which to balance these things. Damage is being done to the corporations (lost subscriptions) to this device.
They are entitled to restitution for this, which will likely put Dragon box out of business.
DragonBox is the wrong place to go after - go after the real criminals - the people who are stealing the service.
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@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender I understand your thought process, and yes the device could be used to watch purely free and OTA television.
The biggest issue with this (at least from the marketing) is that it is actively helping people watch things that are subscription based.
Now one could argue that the subscription services need to better protect their content, but the reality is there would be no way for them to do this.
So the only approach that they have is to shutdown services/businesses that enable / lighten the workload to steal their content.
Well, I don't really know what to tell you. Bad people exist. If you can't secure your business knowing this fact, then sadly, you don't deserve to be in business.
So if I know how to get free gas and electric (bypassing everything the local service provider does to stop my theft) that service provider should just close up shop? When many other people are doing things legally.
You're condoning theft, plain and simple.
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@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
Then the gun, the car, all humans, the air we breath, water... everything is an accomplice. That logic doesn't work. Once "something can be used for a crime", all things are accomplices. Literally, everything.
The box in this case can be equated (and likely will) to Napster. Sure they weren't providing the content, they were just making the content easily searchable and retrievable.
You're making a SAM argument here when there is already precedence in cases like this.
Precedence doesn't make it right. I mentioned Napster already, and know the bought and paid for courts are just bowing to big business.
I get what you're trying to say, but precedence is the only item on which to balance these things. Damage is being done to the corporations (lost subscriptions) to this device.
They are entitled to restitution for this, which will likely put Dragon box out of business.
DragonBox is the wrong place to go after - go after the real criminals - the people who are stealing the service.
Restitution is paid by the money (in this case the business involved). There is no money in chasing the users, or even the people who are uploading the content to be viewed, be it live or an online recording.
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@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
Then the gun, the car, all humans, the air we breath, water... everything is an accomplice. That logic doesn't work. Once "something can be used for a crime", all things are accomplices. Literally, everything.
The box in this case can be equated (and likely will) to Napster. Sure they weren't providing the content, they were just making the content easily searchable and retrievable.
You're making a SAM argument here when there is already precedence in cases like this.
And going after Napster was unethical and they had no legal basis for it based on the tech alone. If, and I don't know, Napster had stuff built in to point them to illegal stuff or advertised that they should use it that way, that's illegal. But just having the Napster tech has nothing wrong with it in the slightest.
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@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender I understand your thought process, and yes the device could be used to watch purely free and OTA television.
The biggest issue with this (at least from the marketing) is that it is actively helping people watch things that are subscription based.
Now one could argue that the subscription services need to better protect their content, but the reality is there would be no way for them to do this.
So the only approach that they have is to shutdown services/businesses that enable / lighten the workload to steal their content.
Well, I don't really know what to tell you. Bad people exist. If you can't secure your business knowing this fact, then sadly, you don't deserve to be in business.
I don't agree here. They are still the victims.
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@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
Then the gun, the car, all humans, the air we breath, water... everything is an accomplice. That logic doesn't work. Once "something can be used for a crime", all things are accomplices. Literally, everything.
The box in this case can be equated (and likely will) to Napster. Sure they weren't providing the content, they were just making the content easily searchable and retrievable.
You're making a SAM argument here when there is already precedence in cases like this.
Precedence doesn't make it right. I mentioned Napster already, and know the bought and paid for courts are just bowing to big business.
Right, the real criminals in most US cases are the courts and the industry associations.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@dustinb3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
I don't have one of these boxes, but this is priracy, hands down. Just because "you're" not downloading the content, providing an easy to use/find/stream content is theft.
The fact of owning a device that can participate in piracy does not make it piracy on it's own.
Granted - most people, probably like 99.9%+ are buying it intending to pirate, the device itself does nothing wrong.
This is like saying guns kill people. No, a gun sitting on a table without outside influence has never killed anyone.
The box is an accomplice to the pirating of the material, because it makes the theft easier. Just like the get-away driver is an accomplice to the bank robbery, even if they never went inside the bank.
Then the gun, the car, all humans, the air we breath, water... everything is an accomplice. That logic doesn't work. Once "something can be used for a crime", all things are accomplices. Literally, everything.
The box in this case can be equated (and likely will) to Napster. Sure they weren't providing the content, they were just making the content easily searchable and retrievable.
You're making a SAM argument here when there is already precedence in cases like this.
And going after Napster was unethical and they had no legal basis for it based on the tech alone. If, and I don't know, Napster had stuff built in to point them to illegal stuff or advertised that they should use it that way, that's illegal. But just having the Napster tech has nothing wrong with it in the slightest.
Here is the court summary for the A&M Records, Inc. v. Napster, Inc., 239 F.3d 1004 (2001).
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Here is an important part of the ruling.
The court then turned to the three uses Napster identified as fair use in the conduct of its users: 1. sampling, where users make temporary copies of a work to sample it before purchase, which the District Court found to be a commercial use even if a user purchases the work at a later time. Sampling was deemed to A&M Records, Inc. v Napster Inc. (2001) not be a fair use, because the "samples" were in fact permanent and complete copies of the desired media. 2. space-shifting, where users access a sound recording through the Napster system that they already own in audio CD format; here the District Court found that neither of the shifting analyses used in the Sony or RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia cases applied in this case because the "shifting" in neither case included or enabled distribution. The space-shifting argument did not succeed because, while the shift to a digital format may have been a personal storage use, it was accompanied by making the file available to the rest of the system's users. 3. permissive distribution of recordings by both new and established artists who have authorized their music to be disseminated in the Napster system, which the District Court ruled was not an infringing use and could continue, along with chat rooms and other non-distributory features of Napster. By contrast, the court found that the owners of Napster could control the infringing behavior of users, and therefore had a duty to do so. The Ninth Circuit affirmed this analysis, finding that the plaintiffs were likely to succeed in proving that Napster did not have a valid fair use defense. -
Which to summarize means, if you have a way to prevent theft as a service provider (Napster, DragonBox etc) it is your responsibility to discourage or stop such behavior.
Actively enabling this behavior means that there is intent to cause harm.
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I equate this act to be nothing different than what Napster did back then.
