FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues
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Were ISP services truly competitive, @Kelly is correct that there would never be a need for net Neutrality laws. People would simply select the carrier with the feature set they desired.
Most people do not give a shit about this one way or the other and will simply pick the product that costs them the least. Whether that carrier is neutral or not.
But the entire ISP industry is nothing but semi regulated monopolies. More monopoly in some places than others, and more regulated in some places than others.
There is no true choice and there is no true competition. So there is certainly a need for laws of this type as has been proven by the existing ISPs over time as they have restricted user access to services.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Fundamentally repealing Net Neutrality is the right thing to do...if ISPs were not monopolies or duopolies in the majority of the country. If freedom to compete actually existed in the market, then removing regulations would spur growth. Unfortunately competition does not exist currently, and won't exist after repeal. The FCC is addressing the wrong problem with this.
I'm not sure that I agree - even in an open market, do you want infrastructure suppliers choosing what you RECEIVE?
For example, UPS and FedEx don't choose to deliver some types of products or from different companies - everything costs the same and comes at the same speed. They don't choose to make certain vendors unable to deliver to you or make some packages slow to discredit those vendors and it would be good for no one if they did.
Well, someone does have to pay to get their packages to their destination faster.
That's open and equal to all. Nothing related to what we are discussing with is refusing to deliver things that have been paid for already.
Not exactly.
You are paying an ISP for access to their network. Nothing more and nothing less.
Their network allows you to then connect to other networks.
Nothing in a competitive market would stop you from choosing an ISP that provides neutral services versus you choosing an ISP that does not.
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Im not sure why this is even a debate. The argument for NN was won a century ago. It is the same argument that existed for water and electric service. The same types of pro-monopoly-fuck-everybody-else people exist today; they also existed 100 years ago. Doesnt make their ideas any more valid now.
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@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@travisdh1 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Fundamentally repealing Net Neutrality is the right thing to do...if ISPs were not monopolies or duopolies in the majority of the country. If freedom to compete actually existed in the market, then removing regulations would spur growth. Unfortunately competition does not exist currently, and won't exist after repeal. The FCC is addressing the wrong problem with this.
I'm not sure that I agree - even in an open market, do you want infrastructure suppliers choosing what you RECEIVE?
For example, UPS and FedEx don't choose to deliver some types of products or from different companies - everything costs the same and comes at the same speed. They don't choose to make certain vendors unable to deliver to you or make some packages slow to discredit those vendors and it would be good for no one if they did.
Well, someone does have to pay to get their packages to their destination faster. Because there is competition in the market those prices are pretty reasonable and there are alternatives. If internet service was truly competitive then you could have a scenario where a Comcast charged for everything under the sun and smaller ISPs could come in and offer open internet for less and take customers forcing Comcast to change their offerings or lose customers. But it isn't truly competitive. Thus why I think the FCC is addressing the wrong thing.
One of the many reasons I'm for local loop unbundling. Let the municipalities manage the last mile and allow ISPs to competitively access the consumer.
If our roads are any sort of indicator of quality I might pass on this option.
You state this as if a Comcast road would be better? NO way.
Yeah, has anyone else seen the condition of the privatized toll routes? Forget tire-eating potholes, those are just the starting point!
If those were that bad, why are drivers still using them? I take it the cost of replacing stuff hasn't out weighted the cost of driving alternative routes.
Toll roads in NY, PA, and Florida (the only places I've driven on them) are not as good but definitely not as bad as the publicly maintained roads. Seems hit and miss depending on what municipality you're in.
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@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@travisdh1 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Fundamentally repealing Net Neutrality is the right thing to do...if ISPs were not monopolies or duopolies in the majority of the country. If freedom to compete actually existed in the market, then removing regulations would spur growth. Unfortunately competition does not exist currently, and won't exist after repeal. The FCC is addressing the wrong problem with this.
I'm not sure that I agree - even in an open market, do you want infrastructure suppliers choosing what you RECEIVE?
For example, UPS and FedEx don't choose to deliver some types of products or from different companies - everything costs the same and comes at the same speed. They don't choose to make certain vendors unable to deliver to you or make some packages slow to discredit those vendors and it would be good for no one if they did.
Well, someone does have to pay to get their packages to their destination faster. Because there is competition in the market those prices are pretty reasonable and there are alternatives. If internet service was truly competitive then you could have a scenario where a Comcast charged for everything under the sun and smaller ISPs could come in and offer open internet for less and take customers forcing Comcast to change their offerings or lose customers. But it isn't truly competitive. Thus why I think the FCC is addressing the wrong thing.
One of the many reasons I'm for local loop unbundling. Let the municipalities manage the last mile and allow ISPs to competitively access the consumer.
If our roads are any sort of indicator of quality I might pass on this option.
You state this as if a Comcast road would be better? NO way.
Yeah, has anyone else seen the condition of the privatized toll routes? Forget tire-eating potholes, those are just the starting point!
If those were that bad, why are drivers still using them? I take it the cost of replacing stuff hasn't out weighted the cost of driving alternative routes.
Toll roads in NY, PA, and Florida (the only places I've driven on them) are not as good but definitely not as worse as the publicly maintained roads. Seems hit and miss depending on what municipality you're in.
NY Toll Roads are State maintained.
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@momurda said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Im not sure why this is even a debate. The argument for NN was won a century ago. It is the same argument that existed for water and electric service. The same types of pro-monopoly-fuck-everybody-else people exist today; they also existed 100 years ago. Doesnt make their ideas any more valid now.
The people who are taking a principled stand against it are ones who want less government control of anything. They're not wrong, but they are wrong about what we need right now. We need net neutrality to stay in place until the day when there aren't monopolistic controls (assuming it should ever come).
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@momurda said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Im not sure why this is even a debate. The argument for NN was won a century ago. It is the same argument that existed for water and electric service. The same types of pro-monopoly-fuck-everybody-else people exist today; they also existed 100 years ago. Doesnt make their ideas any more valid now.
Because those people's companies are now considered people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC -
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@momurda said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Im not sure why this is even a debate. The argument for NN was won a century ago. It is the same argument that existed for water and electric service. The same types of pro-monopoly-fuck-everybody-else people exist today; they also existed 100 years ago. Doesnt make their ideas any more valid now.
The people who are taking a principled stand against it are ones who want less government control of anything. They're not wrong, but they are wrong about what we need right now. We need net neutrality to stay in place until the day when there isn't monopolistic controls (assuming it should ever come).
I don't agree with either. I support government control of all last mile access.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@travisdh1 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Fundamentally repealing Net Neutrality is the right thing to do...if ISPs were not monopolies or duopolies in the majority of the country. If freedom to compete actually existed in the market, then removing regulations would spur growth. Unfortunately competition does not exist currently, and won't exist after repeal. The FCC is addressing the wrong problem with this.
I'm not sure that I agree - even in an open market, do you want infrastructure suppliers choosing what you RECEIVE?
For example, UPS and FedEx don't choose to deliver some types of products or from different companies - everything costs the same and comes at the same speed. They don't choose to make certain vendors unable to deliver to you or make some packages slow to discredit those vendors and it would be good for no one if they did.
Well, someone does have to pay to get their packages to their destination faster. Because there is competition in the market those prices are pretty reasonable and there are alternatives. If internet service was truly competitive then you could have a scenario where a Comcast charged for everything under the sun and smaller ISPs could come in and offer open internet for less and take customers forcing Comcast to change their offerings or lose customers. But it isn't truly competitive. Thus why I think the FCC is addressing the wrong thing.
One of the many reasons I'm for local loop unbundling. Let the municipalities manage the last mile and allow ISPs to competitively access the consumer.
If our roads are any sort of indicator of quality I might pass on this option.
You state this as if a Comcast road would be better? NO way.
Yeah, has anyone else seen the condition of the privatized toll routes? Forget tire-eating potholes, those are just the starting point!
If those were that bad, why are drivers still using them? I take it the cost of replacing stuff hasn't out weighted the cost of driving alternative routes.
Toll roads in NY, PA, and Florida (the only places I've driven on them) are not as good but definitely not as worse as the publicly maintained roads. Seems hit and miss depending on what municipality you're in.
NY Toll Roads are State maintained.
Which I never understood. So you pay twice to drive in those roads... Even when it's been shown that the tolls collected don't maintain the roads.
F you autocorrect.
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having lived in countries where the government oversees the cabling, nothing compares to it.
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@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@travisdh1 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Fundamentally repealing Net Neutrality is the right thing to do...if ISPs were not monopolies or duopolies in the majority of the country. If freedom to compete actually existed in the market, then removing regulations would spur growth. Unfortunately competition does not exist currently, and won't exist after repeal. The FCC is addressing the wrong problem with this.
I'm not sure that I agree - even in an open market, do you want infrastructure suppliers choosing what you RECEIVE?
For example, UPS and FedEx don't choose to deliver some types of products or from different companies - everything costs the same and comes at the same speed. They don't choose to make certain vendors unable to deliver to you or make some packages slow to discredit those vendors and it would be good for no one if they did.
Well, someone does have to pay to get their packages to their destination faster. Because there is competition in the market those prices are pretty reasonable and there are alternatives. If internet service was truly competitive then you could have a scenario where a Comcast charged for everything under the sun and smaller ISPs could come in and offer open internet for less and take customers forcing Comcast to change their offerings or lose customers. But it isn't truly competitive. Thus why I think the FCC is addressing the wrong thing.
One of the many reasons I'm for local loop unbundling. Let the municipalities manage the last mile and allow ISPs to competitively access the consumer.
If our roads are any sort of indicator of quality I might pass on this option.
You state this as if a Comcast road would be better? NO way.
Yeah, has anyone else seen the condition of the privatized toll routes? Forget tire-eating potholes, those are just the starting point!
If those were that bad, why are drivers still using them? I take it the cost of replacing stuff hasn't out weighted the cost of driving alternative routes.
Toll roads in NY, PA, and Florida (the only places I've driven on them) are not as good but definitely not as worse as the publicly maintained roads. Seems hit and miss depending on what municipality you're in.
NY Toll Roads are State maintained.
Which I never understood. Do you pay twice to drive in those roads... Even when it's been down that the tolls collected don't maintain the roads.
Yes of course you pay twice to drive on the roads. You paid to have them paved, and you're always paying to use them. You're still paying for them even if you don't use them by paying taxes.
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@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@travisdh1 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Fundamentally repealing Net Neutrality is the right thing to do...if ISPs were not monopolies or duopolies in the majority of the country. If freedom to compete actually existed in the market, then removing regulations would spur growth. Unfortunately competition does not exist currently, and won't exist after repeal. The FCC is addressing the wrong problem with this.
I'm not sure that I agree - even in an open market, do you want infrastructure suppliers choosing what you RECEIVE?
For example, UPS and FedEx don't choose to deliver some types of products or from different companies - everything costs the same and comes at the same speed. They don't choose to make certain vendors unable to deliver to you or make some packages slow to discredit those vendors and it would be good for no one if they did.
Well, someone does have to pay to get their packages to their destination faster. Because there is competition in the market those prices are pretty reasonable and there are alternatives. If internet service was truly competitive then you could have a scenario where a Comcast charged for everything under the sun and smaller ISPs could come in and offer open internet for less and take customers forcing Comcast to change their offerings or lose customers. But it isn't truly competitive. Thus why I think the FCC is addressing the wrong thing.
One of the many reasons I'm for local loop unbundling. Let the municipalities manage the last mile and allow ISPs to competitively access the consumer.
If our roads are any sort of indicator of quality I might pass on this option.
You state this as if a Comcast road would be better? NO way.
Yeah, has anyone else seen the condition of the privatized toll routes? Forget tire-eating potholes, those are just the starting point!
If those were that bad, why are drivers still using them? I take it the cost of replacing stuff hasn't out weighted the cost of driving alternative routes.
Toll roads in NY, PA, and Florida (the only places I've driven on them) are not as good but definitely not as worse as the publicly maintained roads. Seems hit and miss depending on what municipality you're in.
NY Toll Roads are State maintained.
Which I never understood. Do you pay twice to drive in those roads... Even when it's been down that the tolls collected don't maintain the roads.
Yes of course you pay twice to drive on the roads. You paid to have them paved, and you're always paying to use them. You're still paying for them even if you don't use them by paying taxes.
Right which kind of goes against the purpose of toll roads. Bit off topic sorry.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
having lived in countries where the government oversees the cabling, nothing compares to it.
Like in North Korea, China, and Iran? These are extreme examples of government control, but I don't trust Trump's government to keep their hands out of the flow internet traffic. This is why I am in favor of NN now, but want to see it removed when (if) we do not have monopolies in the majority of markets.
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@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@travisdh1 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Fundamentally repealing Net Neutrality is the right thing to do...if ISPs were not monopolies or duopolies in the majority of the country. If freedom to compete actually existed in the market, then removing regulations would spur growth. Unfortunately competition does not exist currently, and won't exist after repeal. The FCC is addressing the wrong problem with this.
I'm not sure that I agree - even in an open market, do you want infrastructure suppliers choosing what you RECEIVE?
For example, UPS and FedEx don't choose to deliver some types of products or from different companies - everything costs the same and comes at the same speed. They don't choose to make certain vendors unable to deliver to you or make some packages slow to discredit those vendors and it would be good for no one if they did.
Well, someone does have to pay to get their packages to their destination faster. Because there is competition in the market those prices are pretty reasonable and there are alternatives. If internet service was truly competitive then you could have a scenario where a Comcast charged for everything under the sun and smaller ISPs could come in and offer open internet for less and take customers forcing Comcast to change their offerings or lose customers. But it isn't truly competitive. Thus why I think the FCC is addressing the wrong thing.
One of the many reasons I'm for local loop unbundling. Let the municipalities manage the last mile and allow ISPs to competitively access the consumer.
If our roads are any sort of indicator of quality I might pass on this option.
You state this as if a Comcast road would be better? NO way.
Yeah, has anyone else seen the condition of the privatized toll routes? Forget tire-eating potholes, those are just the starting point!
If those were that bad, why are drivers still using them? I take it the cost of replacing stuff hasn't out weighted the cost of driving alternative routes.
Toll roads in NY, PA, and Florida (the only places I've driven on them) are not as good but definitely not as worse as the publicly maintained roads. Seems hit and miss depending on what municipality you're in.
NY Toll Roads are State maintained.
Which I never understood. Do you pay twice to drive in those roads... Even when it's been down that the tolls collected don't maintain the roads.
Yes of course you pay twice to drive on the roads. You paid to have them paved, and you're always paying to use them. You're still paying for them even if you don't use them by paying taxes.
Right which kind of goes against the purpose of toll roads.
Toll roads would only make sense if Non-residence plates were tolled, and that states plates weren't tolled.
But NY (I'm sure others) is in the F-you all game and charges everyone.
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@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
having lived in countries where the government oversees the cabling, nothing compares to it.
This is why I am in favor of NN now, but want to see it removed when (if) we do not have monopolies in the majority of markets.
Wish in one hand and shit in the other. See which gets filled first.
Monopolies or Duopolies aren't going away, ever.
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@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dashrender said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@travisdh1 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@dustinb3403 said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@coliver said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
Fundamentally repealing Net Neutrality is the right thing to do...if ISPs were not monopolies or duopolies in the majority of the country. If freedom to compete actually existed in the market, then removing regulations would spur growth. Unfortunately competition does not exist currently, and won't exist after repeal. The FCC is addressing the wrong problem with this.
I'm not sure that I agree - even in an open market, do you want infrastructure suppliers choosing what you RECEIVE?
For example, UPS and FedEx don't choose to deliver some types of products or from different companies - everything costs the same and comes at the same speed. They don't choose to make certain vendors unable to deliver to you or make some packages slow to discredit those vendors and it would be good for no one if they did.
Well, someone does have to pay to get their packages to their destination faster. Because there is competition in the market those prices are pretty reasonable and there are alternatives. If internet service was truly competitive then you could have a scenario where a Comcast charged for everything under the sun and smaller ISPs could come in and offer open internet for less and take customers forcing Comcast to change their offerings or lose customers. But it isn't truly competitive. Thus why I think the FCC is addressing the wrong thing.
One of the many reasons I'm for local loop unbundling. Let the municipalities manage the last mile and allow ISPs to competitively access the consumer.
If our roads are any sort of indicator of quality I might pass on this option.
You state this as if a Comcast road would be better? NO way.
Yeah, has anyone else seen the condition of the privatized toll routes? Forget tire-eating potholes, those are just the starting point!
If those were that bad, why are drivers still using them? I take it the cost of replacing stuff hasn't out weighted the cost of driving alternative routes.
Toll roads in NY, PA, and Florida (the only places I've driven on them) are not as good but definitely not as worse as the publicly maintained roads. Seems hit and miss depending on what municipality you're in.
NY Toll Roads are State maintained.
Which I never understood. Do you pay twice to drive in those roads... Even when it's been down that the tolls collected don't maintain the roads.
Yes of course you pay twice to drive on the roads. You paid to have them paved, and you're always paying to use them. You're still paying for them even if you don't use them by paying taxes.
Right which kind of goes against the purpose of toll roads.
Toll roads would only make sense if Non-residence plates were tolled, and that states plates weren't tolled.
But NY (I'm sure others) is in the F-you all game and charges everyone.
TX did the opposite, only charged TX plates and no one else. NY at least does it on roads only used by non-residents. TX does it on the commuter roads.
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@kelly said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
having lived in countries where the government oversees the cabling, nothing compares to it.
Like in North Korea, China, and Iran? These are extreme examples of government control, but I don't trust Trump's government to keep their hands out of the flow internet traffic. This is why I am in favor of NN now, but want to see it removed when (if) we do not have monopolies in the majority of markets.
Isn't that a slippery slope argument? There are dozens of other countries where ISPs are treated as utilities and don't have the issues that we have here. Most of the fastest countries in the world have a national ISP.
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@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
NY at least does it on roads only used by non-residents.
You're smoking crack today apparently.
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@jaredbusch said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
@scottalanmiller said in FCC Net Neutrality Insanity Continues:
NY at least does it on roads only used by non-residents.
You're smoking crack today apparently.
NY's toll road is the PA to MA road. It's not very useful, especially for any distance, for NYers.
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They specifically have tolls in NY because it's the NY bypass highway.
