PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?
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@Dashrender Of course it seems wrong, because fundamentally it is.
But if you have a tractor so old (but still using software, let's pretend its the year 2100 and you have a tractor from 2015) do you honestly think anyone will chase you for trying to "patch" the software?
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The point of the software protections are to protect the makers of the software from having their digital content stolen and used for other tractor makers.
It's not to stop the progress of the software. Even though it often does.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
The point of the software protections are to protect the makers of the software from having their digital content stolen and used for other tractor makers.
It's not to stop the progress of the software. Even though it often does.
That's not a problem they really need to worry about though. Think about it this way. If the code was all open source, then anyone could see when anyone else was stealing their code for another purpose, and then the perpetrator would be sued. So the problem would be done.
Of course, This brings about another question - should software be copy writable/patent-able? Personally I don't think so. The trivial nature to someone in the field for creating the same output is so high that there seems like small chances that it would qualify for the patent process. I'm not sure what the copy write process is though.
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@Dashrender But you just provided an example of where software progression is stopped. IE the farmer who's looking at the code, find a bug and is told to piss of by the tractor maker.
That is a client retention issue. If the tractor maker doesn't want to fix it, they're losing a client.
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@Dashrender said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller can't fix the software, but you can look and tell the manufacturer that their software is shit at this point or that.
You can still tear the engine apart.
Which doesn't really help for fixing it yourself
If software is the issue, and you're able to pinpoint the software bug, you submit that bug to the tractor manufacturer, they create a fix and then supply that fix to ever tractor of that model that needs it.
Granted, yeah you really don't get to fix a software bug, but at least you can check to see if there is one...
But what happens when the manufacturer tells you to piss off, we won't fix it, now buy a new tractor? Now you're just out. Again, seems wrong!
Or if the manufacturer can't fix it?
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@scottalanmiller In either the case of "we won't fix it" or "we can't fix it" the manufacturer is going to lose a client. At least the one.
If the tractor doesn't do the job as required, then that market space has a void for another tractor.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller In either the case of "we won't fix it" or "we can't fix it" the manufacturer is going to lose a client. At least the one.
If the tractor doesn't do the job as required, then that market space has a void for another tractor.
But that doesn't protect the consumer. The vendor still owns them.
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller In either the case of "we won't fix it" or "we can't fix it" the manufacturer is going to lose a client. At least the one.
If the tractor doesn't do the job as required, then that market space has a void for another tractor.
But that doesn't protect the consumer. The vendor still owns them.
The consumer at that point has many options. Fix it if the manufacturer refuses or is unable to, or buy another tractor. (I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet there is even a clause which says if the software manufacturer refuses to correct a problem, that the consumer can)
Nothing is forcing that consumer to use that tool, which doesn't do the job in the manner required. If it doesn't work, buy one that does.
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I can only really speak from a software perspective, but I like open source, but I am not an evangelical. I think certain things are better open source, such as infrastructure and tools (nginx, Apache, MySQL, PHP, node.js, BSD, Linux, etc) because they provide the basis for people to more cheaply and consistently create other things.
Having said that, asking "should everything be open source" really is inadvertently asking "should we force everyone to make their code open source," and the answer is no. All of the open source (primarily free software, actually) evangelicals I've ever known had never been poor, never really had to work for anything, and just assumed that I must give away what I make for free and "charge" for support or whatever, if I need to make a living, or in the case of some others, just get a different job.
I wrote about this bizarre inconsistency on my blog:
It's got some really bizarre contradictory concepts very apparent in the FOSS community. As in, yes you can support yourself on making open source software, but you do that by getting another job.
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
The consumer at that point has many options. Fix it if the manufacturer refuses or is unable to, or buy another tractor. (I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet there is even a clause which says if the software manufacturer refuses to correct a problem, that the consumer can)
No, I know that you dont have that right. You don't have the right to fix it. The "choice" is to double the cost of a tractor for you and gamble again. That's not a viable choice.
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@scottalanmiller You always have the choice to build your own tractor....
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@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller You always have the choice to build your own tractor....
Which is really what needs to be done, an agricultural consortium should build the closed parts and make open tractors.
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller You always have the choice to build your own tractor....
Which is really what needs to be done, an agricultural consortium should build the closed parts and make open tractors.
That's a really cool idea.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_cola
I've made this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCola_(drink)By that I meant my wife did, and I didn't like it. I prefer Coca-Cola, what can I say? If I could make that myself, I'd be a lot fatter and have a lot less teeth.
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@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
The consumer at that point has many options. Fix it if the manufacturer refuses or is unable to, or buy another tractor. (I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet there is even a clause which says if the software manufacturer refuses to correct a problem, that the consumer can)
No, I know that you dont have that right. You don't have the right to fix it. The "choice" is to double the cost of a tractor for you and gamble again. That's not a viable choice.
he's right, once the government says you can't open the black box - you can't open the black box - period. Now, if the company goes under, and no one picks up the rights to the tech, etc, then you can probably sneak by, but if the company is still open, and they find you opening a black box on an unsupported model.. they could still sue you. Just more more thing as part of the wrongness pile.
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@Dashrender said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
The consumer at that point has many options. Fix it if the manufacturer refuses or is unable to, or buy another tractor. (I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet there is even a clause which says if the software manufacturer refuses to correct a problem, that the consumer can)
No, I know that you dont have that right. You don't have the right to fix it. The "choice" is to double the cost of a tractor for you and gamble again. That's not a viable choice.
he's right, once the government says you can't open the black box - you can't open the black box - period. Now, if the company goes under, and no one picks up the rights to the tech, etc, then you can probably sneak by, but if the company is still open, and they find you opening a black box on an unsupported model.. they could still sue you. Just more more thing as part of the wrongness pile.
But if I believe the black box is causing the problem, I rip it out and get a new one. If the company or licensed dealer won't sell me a new black box, then I will bypass it. If it's something critical to the operation of my tractor, then I'll park it beside the road with a big sign that says "Hunk of junk don't buy these" and I'll find a way to procure a used one from a different brand that doesn't hassle us normal folks that happen to not be afraid to fix broken stuff.
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@dafyre said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@Dashrender said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
The consumer at that point has many options. Fix it if the manufacturer refuses or is unable to, or buy another tractor. (I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet there is even a clause which says if the software manufacturer refuses to correct a problem, that the consumer can)
No, I know that you dont have that right. You don't have the right to fix it. The "choice" is to double the cost of a tractor for you and gamble again. That's not a viable choice.
he's right, once the government says you can't open the black box - you can't open the black box - period. Now, if the company goes under, and no one picks up the rights to the tech, etc, then you can probably sneak by, but if the company is still open, and they find you opening a black box on an unsupported model.. they could still sue you. Just more more thing as part of the wrongness pile.
But if I believe the black box is causing the problem, I rip it out and get a new one. If the company or licensed dealer won't sell me a new black box, then I will bypass it. If it's something critical to the operation of my tractor, then I'll park it beside the road with a big sign that says "Hunk of junk don't buy these" and I'll find a way to procure a used one from a different brand that doesn't hassle us normal folks that happen to not be afraid to fix broken stuff.
LOL - good luck with that
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@dafyre said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@Dashrender said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
The consumer at that point has many options. Fix it if the manufacturer refuses or is unable to, or buy another tractor. (I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet there is even a clause which says if the software manufacturer refuses to correct a problem, that the consumer can)
No, I know that you dont have that right. You don't have the right to fix it. The "choice" is to double the cost of a tractor for you and gamble again. That's not a viable choice.
he's right, once the government says you can't open the black box - you can't open the black box - period. Now, if the company goes under, and no one picks up the rights to the tech, etc, then you can probably sneak by, but if the company is still open, and they find you opening a black box on an unsupported model.. they could still sue you. Just more more thing as part of the wrongness pile.
But if I believe the black box is causing the problem, I rip it out and get a new one. If the company or licensed dealer won't sell me a new black box, then I will bypass it. If it's something critical to the operation of my tractor, then I'll park it beside the road with a big sign that says "Hunk of junk don't buy these" and I'll find a way to procure a used one from a different brand that doesn't hassle us normal folks that happen to not be afraid to fix broken stuff.
There things start at like a quarter of a million dollars, though. You can't casually replace them.
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@Dashrender said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@dafyre said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@Dashrender said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
The consumer at that point has many options. Fix it if the manufacturer refuses or is unable to, or buy another tractor. (I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet there is even a clause which says if the software manufacturer refuses to correct a problem, that the consumer can)
No, I know that you dont have that right. You don't have the right to fix it. The "choice" is to double the cost of a tractor for you and gamble again. That's not a viable choice.
he's right, once the government says you can't open the black box - you can't open the black box - period. Now, if the company goes under, and no one picks up the rights to the tech, etc, then you can probably sneak by, but if the company is still open, and they find you opening a black box on an unsupported model.. they could still sue you. Just more more thing as part of the wrongness pile.
But if I believe the black box is causing the problem, I rip it out and get a new one. If the company or licensed dealer won't sell me a new black box, then I will bypass it. If it's something critical to the operation of my tractor, then I'll park it beside the road with a big sign that says "Hunk of junk don't buy these" and I'll find a way to procure a used one from a different brand that doesn't hassle us normal folks that happen to not be afraid to fix broken stuff.
LOL - good luck with that
picks up phone, dials Fred
Hey Fred, you still got that old John Deere in the back? She still run? She does? Yea. Mind if I borry her or buy her from ya? Yeah, okay thank. I'll be there with a six pack, some money, and a trailer in about an hour.hangs up
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@dafyre said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@Dashrender said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@dafyre said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@Dashrender said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@scottalanmiller said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
@DustinB3403 said in PBS Digital: Should Everything be Open Source?:
The consumer at that point has many options. Fix it if the manufacturer refuses or is unable to, or buy another tractor. (I'm not sure, but I'm willing to bet there is even a clause which says if the software manufacturer refuses to correct a problem, that the consumer can)
No, I know that you dont have that right. You don't have the right to fix it. The "choice" is to double the cost of a tractor for you and gamble again. That's not a viable choice.
he's right, once the government says you can't open the black box - you can't open the black box - period. Now, if the company goes under, and no one picks up the rights to the tech, etc, then you can probably sneak by, but if the company is still open, and they find you opening a black box on an unsupported model.. they could still sue you. Just more more thing as part of the wrongness pile.
But if I believe the black box is causing the problem, I rip it out and get a new one. If the company or licensed dealer won't sell me a new black box, then I will bypass it. If it's something critical to the operation of my tractor, then I'll park it beside the road with a big sign that says "Hunk of junk don't buy these" and I'll find a way to procure a used one from a different brand that doesn't hassle us normal folks that happen to not be afraid to fix broken stuff.
LOL - good luck with that
picks up phone, dials Fred
Hey Fred, you still got that old John Deere in the back? She still run? She does? Yea. Mind if I borry her or buy her from ya? Yeah, okay thank. I'll be there with a six pack, some money, and a trailer in about an hour.hangs up
We're talking farms here, though. Not ploughing the garden. These things run on GPS, drive themselves, do really complicated things. You can't just swap them in and out or borrow ones. No one has this gear sitting idle, they can't afford it.
