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    Offsite Backup Solution Needed

    IT Discussion
    backup and disaster recovery veeam
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    • JaredBuschJ
      JaredBusch
      last edited by

      You will need to use Replication not Backup. Additionally, you will likely need to make a local seed replica first then move it offsite and resume replication.

      Paid Veeam can do this for VMWare or Hyper-V using the backup sets.

      VMWare can do this natively with the right subscription I believe.

      Hyper-V can do this natively with no additional licensing.

      I would assume XS can do it natively, but you need a tool like XO to make it easy to do.

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
      • JaredBuschJ
        JaredBusch @DustinB3403
        last edited by

        @DustinB3403 said:

        The best solution would be to get another NAS on premise, have this take the load of your backups daily, and then have the same NAS push to your retail location.

        This is not a good solution. The first time you ever make a new full backup you kill the internet.

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • DustinB3403D
          DustinB3403
          last edited by DustinB3403

          Well he'd be making the full onsite, and seeding to the other (left that part out) with both NAS on premise.

          Removing the internet from the picture.

          JaredBuschJ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • JaredBuschJ
            JaredBusch @DustinB3403
            last edited by

            @DustinB3403 said:

            Well he'd be making the full onsite, and seeding to the other (left that part out) with both NAS on premise.

            Removing the internet from the picture.

            But a NAS to NAS replication is still going to transfer a crapton of data when you do a local full backup the first time after everything is seeded and the NAS moved back offsite.

            Replication at the hypervisor level or the VM backup level is needed to provide enough intelligence to transfer replication offsite.

            DustinB3403D DashrenderD 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • S
              Sparkum
              last edited by

              Does Veeam Replication create a snapshot though?

              Doing local or not isnt really an issue, swimming in spare hard drive space

              DashrenderD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • DustinB3403D
                DustinB3403 @JaredBusch
                last edited by

                @JaredBusch said:

                @DustinB3403 said:

                Well he'd be making the full onsite, and seeding to the other (left that part out) with both NAS on premise.

                Removing the internet from the picture.

                But a NAS to NAS replication is still going to transfer a crapton of data when you do a local full backup the first time after everything is seeded and the NAS moved back offsite.

                Replication at the hypervisor level or the VM backup level is needed to provide enough intelligence to transfer replication offsite.

                Why would additional data get sync'd over after the initial seeding? (I'm honestly curious)

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • DashrenderD
                  Dashrender @Sparkum
                  last edited by

                  @Sparkum said:

                  Does Veeam Replication create a snapshot though?

                  Doing local or not isnt really an issue, swimming in spare hard drive space

                  replication works through the backup copy.. it doesn't effect the host at all. i.e. no snapshot on the VM host.

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • DashrenderD
                    Dashrender @JaredBusch
                    last edited by

                    @JaredBusch said:

                    @DustinB3403 said:

                    Well he'd be making the full onsite, and seeding to the other (left that part out) with both NAS on premise.

                    Removing the internet from the picture.

                    But a NAS to NAS replication is still going to transfer a crapton of data when you do a local full backup the first time after everything is seeded and the NAS moved back offsite.

                    Replication at the hypervisor level or the VM backup level is needed to provide enough intelligence to transfer replication offsite.

                    WHAT? why would you say that? and now you're talking more about a continuous replication and probably never doing a full reseed.

                    and besides, can he even do a hypervisor replication without having a hypervisor in each location?

                    S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                    • DenisKelleyD
                      DenisKelley @DustinB3403
                      last edited by

                      @DustinB3403 said:

                      What are you trying to backup, I'm guessing your VM's.

                      If so can you back them up to a local storage unit like a Synology NAS, and use that as the push device for your off-site?

                      Definitely the way to go here. Trying to push backup over 5/5 (depending on amount of data) is gonna be....well tough.

                      By no means was it in one shot.

                      I was going server by server, 2 worked successfully, the third the **snapshot outgrew the server **and crashed it.

                      To be honest, this is not a Veeam issue, it's a storage problem. You'd have the same problem with other software applications that backup at the VM level.

                      Replication would be a good idea as mentioned above. However, it doesn't solve your off-site backup issue. It gives you a near-term DR solution. The good thing about replication is that you can multiple restore points and you don't need to run another full once you seed the DR location. You still need an off-site backup solution and even going Forward Incremental, you still need the occasional full which, mentioned above, will kill your Internet. Even looking at doing someone at the NAS level like rsync, you'll likely run into the same situation when the full gets kicked off occasionally.

                      Other solution for offs-site would be with tape and Veeam backup copy jobs. Not ideal since you'll need it at multiple locations. You might try using hard drives instead and that can be done with Veeam, but depending on your data retention needs, who knows how many you'd need.

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                      • DashrenderD
                        Dashrender
                        last edited by

                        Veeam has a system where they suggest new full backups on a regular basis - wither that's actually needed or not, I don't know.

                        I use Dell's Appassure - it's a continuous backup - a full is only done one time, unless the backup location become corrupt for some reason (rare). After the single full, only changes are backed up based on the changes.

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • S
                          Sparkum @Dashrender
                          last edited by

                          @Dashrender said:

                          @JaredBusch said:

                          @DustinB3403 said:

                          Well he'd be making the full onsite, and seeding to the other (left that part out) with both NAS on premise.

                          Removing the internet from the picture.

                          But a NAS to NAS replication is still going to transfer a crapton of data when you do a local full backup the first time after everything is seeded and the NAS moved back offsite.

                          Replication at the hypervisor level or the VM backup level is needed to provide enough intelligence to transfer replication offsite.

                          WHAT? why would you say that? and now you're talking more about a continuous replication and probably never doing a full reseed.

                          and besides, can he even do a hypervisor replication without having a hypervisor in each location?

                          There will be a server running VMWare at the offsite as well

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • MattSpellerM
                            MattSpeller
                            last edited by

                            In a similar situation with limited bandwidth like that we just used Symantec to dump to tape. Nice people in a van came by each week to get the tapes.

                            DustinB3403D BRRABillB scottalanmillerS 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • DashrenderD
                              Dashrender
                              last edited by

                              In reading DenisKelley's post and then re-reading JB's post - I suppose you could go for incremental replication at the hypervisor level, but I don't know if that requires a server with a hypervisor on it at the remote location. Be that as it may, it's not a backup, it's a replication of the live system. So you can't go back in time. If the live system gets infected, and that infection is replicated to the DR site, you're done. So again, this is not backup.

                              How much data are we talking about?

                              You mentioned that your server crashed (I'm assuming your VM host) because it ran out of space due to snapshots?

                              Wow - what's your change rate? How much total data do you have?

                              I don't know how much extra storage you have on that server, but if you're running it out of space because a snap file is there, damn. Sounds like you have a huge change rate going on. Depending on your change rate, you might not even be able to replicate your backups over night with a 5/5, mathematically it might not work out.

                              S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • DustinB3403D
                                DustinB3403 @MattSpeller
                                last edited by

                                @MattSpeller said:

                                In a similar situation with limited bandwidth like that we just used Symantec to dump to tape. Nice people in a van came by each week to get the tapes.

                                Which a great bon-fire is held weekly?

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • DustinB3403D
                                  DustinB3403
                                  last edited by DustinB3403

                                  Yeah so there are a few different items being discussed.

                                  Continuous replication is not a backup. It's an Oh-Shit recovery tool, where you are making a ready to boot copy of everything on a separate host.

                                  • this does not sound like what you want

                                  Backups include

                                  • Full Backups - backing up everything VM related
                                  • Incrementals or Delta's - Only the changes since the last backup.

                                  Incrementals are what you appear to want, but then you mention that you'll have a Hypervisor at the remote location.

                                  So are you doing / hoping for a Continuous Replication and Backup scenario where you use two types of recovery?

                                  JaredBuschJ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • BRRABillB
                                    BRRABill @MattSpeller
                                    last edited by

                                    @MattSpeller said:

                                    Nice people in a van came by each week to get the tapes.

                                    How do you know they were nice? Did you actually speak to them?

                                    MattSpellerM wrx7mW 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • MattSpellerM
                                      MattSpeller @BRRABill
                                      last edited by

                                      @BRRABill said:

                                      @MattSpeller said:

                                      Nice people in a van came by each week to get the tapes.

                                      How do you know they were nice? Did you actually speak to them?

                                      Yeah they wouldn't take tape from anyone but IT staff, checked ID every time. Polite and professional.

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • wrx7mW
                                        wrx7m @BRRABill
                                        last edited by

                                        @BRRABill said:

                                        @MattSpeller said:

                                        Nice people in a van came by each week to get the tapes.

                                        How do you know they were nice? Did you actually speak to them?

                                        10 years ago when I was using tape, we had Iron Mountain come by twice a week and swap boxes of tapes in a rotation. That guy was nice. Now I have a better system where I copy backups offsite to Amazon S3 and Glacier.

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • S
                                          Sparkum @Dashrender
                                          last edited by

                                          @Dashrender said:

                                          In reading DenisKelley's post and then re-reading JB's post - I suppose you could go for incremental replication at the hypervisor level, but I don't know if that requires a server with a hypervisor on it at the remote location. Be that as it may, it's not a backup, it's a replication of the live system. So you can't go back in time. If the live system gets infected, and that infection is replicated to the DR site, you're done. So again, this is not backup.

                                          How much data are we talking about?

                                          You mentioned that your server crashed (I'm assuming your VM host) because it ran out of space due to snapshots?

                                          Wow - what's your change rate? How much total data do you have?

                                          I don't know how much extra storage you have on that server, but if you're running it out of space because a snap file is there, damn. Sounds like you have a huge change rate going on. Depending on your change rate, you might not even be able to replicate your backups over night with a 5/5, mathematically it might not work out.

                                          A replication of a live system is completely fine, might actually be nice.

                                          We have our onsite backups that go back 4-8weeks so infection isnt really our concern with the offsite, our concern is if we lose the building.

                                          Total data is pretty big. If I was to guess...4TB? plus or minus 1TB (2TB being FileServer)

                                          Change....as well probably pretty big, the biggest part right now (cause of how we do it but it can be changed) is DB dumbs of our SQL, so we would obviously change that, all servers change 100-200GB? maybe more, honestly not sure, DOESNT NEED TO BE EVERYDAY

                                          Talking every week / every month (for less important)

                                          Just plain and simple, whats the least painfull way to get backup if a plane flew into our building.

                                          If our sharepoint site was 3 weeks old, but our POS was 1 days old, we're not doing too bad.

                                          DustinB3403D 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • wrx7mW
                                            wrx7m
                                            last edited by

                                            Did you ever talk to veeam about why snapshots were crashing your server? Do you have really old/under-powered hardware with super slow hard drives?

                                            S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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