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    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      Manual installs have their place, to set up the template. Even if you're only deploying one server it should be from a template because it's repeatable. Updates are easier and quicker with templates. Just because you are charging your customers more so you can do manual work instead of automating it doesn't mean others are trying to sell something.

      Exaclty the opposite. Since the average business installs only one instance (remember, average businesses are super small) the time to do what you are saying is all above and beyond the work done in teh lifespan of a workload. on average.

      Tons and tons of places you are correct, should be templates. But stating "all" is simply BS.

      The time to do what I"m saying might add 10 minutes, maybe. To have a system you can rebuild instantly. It only helps you in the long run.

      You mean just taking a snapshot after the OS is installed? That's fine, take it. But the install is already done. Sure, you can use the template on the next install, if it ever happens.

      Yes that's exactly what I'm talking about. What else could I possibly have been talking about?

      posted in IT Discussion
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    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      You make these claims but never have any proof.

      Same in reverse. You act as though I have to prove the obvious and logical, while you don't have to have any foundation for wild claims that make no sense and don't have any obvious foundation.

      You made the claim. You need to provide the proof.

      Others in the thread have the same experience I do. You solely are the one with the experience you are mentioning.

      posted in IT Discussion
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      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      Because people are too busy selling VMware to those SMBs because almost no one is out there protecting them. Telling them that those KVM resources won't help them or cost too much and that they need "dumbed down" systems because they are small shops.

      Out of the box VMware is more powerful than KVM. There's no one claiming that VMware is dumbing down the virtualization.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      Manual installs have their place, to set up the template. Even if you're only deploying one server it should be from a template because it's repeatable. Updates are easier and quicker with templates. Just because you are charging your customers more so you can do manual work instead of automating it doesn't mean others are trying to sell something.

      Exaclty the opposite. Since the average business installs only one instance (remember, average businesses are super small) the time to do what you are saying is all above and beyond the work done in teh lifespan of a workload. on average.

      Tons and tons of places you are correct, should be templates. But stating "all" is simply BS.

      The time to do what I"m saying might add 10 minutes, maybe. To have a system you can rebuild instantly. It only helps you in the long run.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      What it boils down to is you are trying to convince people that your experience somehow has more weight than everyone else's.

      Exactly the opposite. And that's why you get upset. I'm showing that my experience (and logic) dispute your wild claims that you're unique experience is universal. You claim that everyone should do one thing, that one big vendor should provide all products, that things don't exist. If my experience shows exceptions, or that resources do exist, it disputes your claim.

      My experience isn't better than anyone else's. But when the claim is that "these don't exist" and my experience says "they exist in enough supply that there is no shortage" it doesn't make mine "more meaningful", it just shows that your impression can't be true and what you are promoting is based off of your sole experience, and not what is really out there.

      I never claimed that anyone should do one thing at all or that only one vendor should provide all products. What I claimed was there isn't an abundance of a talent for a specific tool. I don't think VMware is the best product. I've argued on this site against it multiple times.

      Except you still haven't provided any proof that these exceptions exist. You're still making claims like "we see them all the time". That doesn't mean anything. You made the claim the talent is there, the onus is on you to prove that it exists.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      Just in this thread there is a lot

      No there isn't. I"ll just be blatantly honest. I don't think you or your company have the skills you are saying here. Not too long ago you made an argument about creating VMs through Cockpit was fine because manual OS installations was ok and didn't need to be automated through clones. I 100% don't believe your company has KVM skills outside of maybe installing Proxmox and clicking some buttons.

      That's fine, but that's what you have to resort to.... claiming everyone you meet isn't good enough to say that there aren't skills for it. Yes, manual install IS fine, and I can't accept your opinion if you feel that one way is the only way for everything. You are doing exactly what we warn people about.... not evaluating needs, not learning multiple ways. Just latching onto the latest trend and touting the thing you know religiously without doing the one thing that makes us truly IT.... evaluating what we do in the context of the business need.

      If you feel that manual installs have no place, you've made my point for me. Your opinion is suspect because you are wearing blinders and not operating like someone advising a company based on their needs, but just pushing an agenda. So you come across, like you sound, like a sales person pushing a product or technique. That's the opposite of our jobs in IT.

      Sure, cloning is great much of the time, most of the time. But not all of the time. Until you stop with the "my way or the highway" rhetoric, you can't add value to a decision process.

      I'm not claiming everyone isn't good enough. I know large tech companies have great KVM skills. But they are paid a ton and they aren't floating around helping SMBs deploy Windows AD infrastructure.

      If you feel that manual installs have no place, you've made my point for me. Your opinion is suspect because you are wearing blinders and not operating like someone advising a company based on their needs, but just pushing an agenda. So you come across, like you sound, like a sales person pushing a product or technique. That's the opposite of our jobs in IT.

      Manual installs have their place, to set up the template. Even if you're only deploying one server it should be from a template because it's repeatable. Updates are easier and quicker with templates. Just because you are charging your customers more so you can do manual work instead of automating it doesn't mean others are trying to sell something.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      We can reverse it... if you don't believe that all the KVM people hoping for work don't exist... how are we to know that VMware people exist? The logic goes both ways.

      Because I've worked with multiple fortune 50s, fortune 100s, and smaller. I've worked with people who have automated on VMware. I've literally never met anyone else who has KVM experience outside of one guy who had Proxmox at home.

      This doesn't include people using the Vagrant libvirt provider or something small like that.

      And yet, essentially every Fortune 100 has loads of internal KVM skills. In a F100, they generally segregate those teams. Just because you don't meet them doesn't mean that they aren't there. And rarely would you know unless you specifically asked since they are all over the place. Similarly, I work with Windows Admins all the time, every day, and I bet at least a third of them have VMware experience, maybe even really good skills, but if we aren't discussing that, I'd never know.

      You make these claims but never have any proof. What it boils down to is you are trying to convince people that your experience somehow has more weight than everyone else's. There are multiple people in this thread who have worked with and are currently working with large enterprises but you dismiss their claims and somehow believe what you think you are seeing is more of a reality than what everyone else is.

      One only has to look back at the thread where you claimed that this website was somehow responsible for a noticeable uptick in Linux desktop usage to know your version of reality is not everyone else's version of reality.

      posted in IT Discussion
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    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      We can reverse it... if you don't believe that all the KVM people hoping for work don't exist... how are we to know that VMware people exist? The logic goes both ways.

      Because I've worked with multiple fortune 50s, fortune 100s, and smaller. I've worked with people who have automated on VMware. I've literally never met anyone else who has KVM experience outside of one guy who had Proxmox at home.

      This doesn't include people using the Vagrant libvirt provider or something small like that.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      Just in this thread there is a lot

      No there isn't. I"ll just be blatantly honest. I don't think you or your company have the skills you are saying here. Not too long ago you made an argument about creating VMs through Cockpit was fine because manual OS installations was ok and didn't need to be automated through clones. I 100% don't believe your company has KVM skills outside of maybe installing Proxmox and clicking some buttons.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      We work with large companies ranging from DoD (Platform One, GD, ), to Walmart, to big 4 accounting, to even training Red Hat. We also work with small companies down to 4-5 IT/devs. You are out of touch. All of them want CNCF landscape cloud native tooling. Some still use more legacy tools like Jenkins, but still want cloud native.
      Just because the local branch of the single fortune 10 company you say that you work with uses on prem servers means nothing.

      A used car sales man could with 100% confidence say that basically all families are looking to buy a new car. He meet lots on lots of them all the time and everyone has this same issue.

      We all live in bubbles. I have no argument on either side of KVM hiring but it's very risky to think that what we ourselves is experiencing is happening everywhere.

      The latest Goldman Sachs survey shows that the 2000 largest companies in the world, only have 23% of their workloads in the public cloud. Other surveys shows about the same numbers.

      I have worked with a few of the companies on that list and they are not cloud centric at all. If I would guess I'd say they have maybe 5% in the cloud. But I wouldn't dare extrapolate that into thinking all of them are the same.

      Another thing is that people lump things together. You're either running on-prem servers with no automation and no containers and nothing modern or you are 100% on cloud infrastructure and IaC. I don't think that's how things work. There might be huge difference just within the same company and different divisions.

      I agree. IT is a huge continuum of solutions with many, many axes. On prem, hosted. Cloud, VM, even physical. Modern apps, client-server, web, fat clients. Automated, manual. It goes on and on. And even withina single company there are after many of these and sometimes, all of them.

      And this means what? There are still companies that use mainframes. I worked for one. Doesn't mean they should be.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      @dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:

      @fateknollogee said in KVM or VMWare:

      @jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:

      @hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:

      Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)

      No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.

      I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.

      This is probably the best "common sense" answer I've seen in a long time. (I haven't read the rest of this thread yet).
      And people wonder why, despite it's hefty price tag, vmWare continues to dominate!
      Free isn't always free!

      And in the SMB, the price tag just isn’t that hefty, unless you require HA.

      List price is $576. At $50,000 a year salary that's only 15 hours of troubleshooting of any other tool before you make that back. Plus you get the benefits of easier automation, better integrations with other tools, etc.

      Right, and you'd never make that back in an SMB. That's my point. And there is no support at that number. YOu have to pay more to get support. And the licensing takes time. All things you can never make back because other products in the SMB work so well, require so little support... their TCO is so much lower than spending extra to them have the same or higher ongoing support cost just doesn't make any sense.

      It's 15 hours, you would def make that back in an SMB. Automation is much easier through VMware. I've done both. It's much easier with VMware, easily more than 15 hours a year.

      The licensing does not take time. It's an automatic credit card purchase.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:

      @fateknollogee said in KVM or VMWare:

      @jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:

      @hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:

      Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)

      No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.

      I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.

      This is probably the best "common sense" answer I've seen in a long time. (I haven't read the rest of this thread yet).
      And people wonder why, despite it's hefty price tag, vmWare continues to dominate!
      Free isn't always free!

      And in the SMB, the price tag just isn’t that hefty, unless you require HA.

      List price is $576. At $50,000 a year salary that's only 15 hours of troubleshooting of any other tool before you make that back. Plus you get the benefits of easier automation, better integrations with other tools, etc.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      @pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      We work with large companies ranging from DoD (Platform One, GD, ), to Walmart, to big 4 accounting, to even training Red Hat. We also work with small companies down to 4-5 IT/devs. You are out of touch. All of them want CNCF landscape cloud native tooling. Some still use more legacy tools like Jenkins, but still want cloud native.
      Just because the local branch of the single fortune 10 company you say that you work with uses on prem servers means nothing.

      A used car sales man could with 100% confidence say that basically all families are looking to buy a new car. He meet lots on lots of them all the time and everyone has this same issue.

      We all live in bubbles. I have no argument on either side of KVM hiring but it's very risky to think that what we ourselves is experiencing is happening everywhere.

      The latest Goldman Sachs survey shows that the 2000 largest companies in the world, only have 23% of their workloads in the public cloud. Other surveys shows about the same numbers.

      I have worked with a few of the companies on that list and they are not cloud centric at all. If I would guess I'd say they have maybe 5% in the cloud. But I wouldn't dare extrapolate that into thinking all of them are the same.

      Another thing is that people lump things together. You're either running on-prem servers with no automation and no containers and nothing modern or you are 100% on cloud infrastructure and IaC. I don't think that's how things work. There might be huge difference just within the same company and different divisions.

      CNCF doesn't mean public cloud. It's about the fastest growing open source 12 factor native applications. I never said all companies are on public cloud. I said companies want cloud native tooling. Those are two very different things.

      Edit: not sure what happened but I somehow I posted with the keyboard accidentally before I was done typing.

      I did however say "on prem servers", but didn't mean the only other option was public cloud. I was driving and didn't explain well. I meant that as legacy virtualization.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @pete-s said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      We work with large companies ranging from DoD (Platform One, GD, ), to Walmart, to big 4 accounting, to even training Red Hat. We also work with small companies down to 4-5 IT/devs. You are out of touch. All of them want CNCF landscape cloud native tooling. Some still use more legacy tools like Jenkins, but still want cloud native.
      Just because the local branch of the single fortune 10 company you say that you work with uses on prem servers means nothing.

      A used car sales man could with 100% confidence say that basically all families are looking to buy a new car. He meet lots on lots of them all the time and everyone has this same issue.

      We all live in bubbles. I have no argument on either side of KVM hiring but it's very risky to think that what we ourselves is experiencing is happening everywhere.

      The latest Goldman Sachs survey shows that the 2000 largest companies in the world, only have 23% of their workloads in the public cloud. Other surveys shows about the same numbers.

      I have worked with a few of the companies on that list and they are not cloud centric at all. If I would guess I'd say they have maybe 5% in the cloud. But I wouldn't dare extrapolate that into thinking all of them are the same.

      Another thing is that people lump things together. You're either running on-prem servers with no automation and no containers and nothing modern or you are 100% on cloud infrastructure and IaC. I don't think that's how things work. There might be huge difference just within the same company and different divisions.

      CNCF doesn't mean public cloud. It's about the fastest growing open source 12 factor native applications. I never said all companies are on public cloud. I said companies want cloud native tooling. Those are two very different things.

      Edit: not sure what happened but I somehow I posted with the keyboard accidentally before I was done typing.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:

      So Scott could be right, the might be tons of talent out there, there might be tons of companies with that talent on-board, but how is one supposed to find those companies in the first place.

      Because to make the claim you have to know where they are.

      If I told you there's a pile of diamonds the size of a house somewhere but couldn't tell you where it was, would you believe me that it exists?

      Anyone can make claims based on statements like "we see", "we know", etc but that doesn't mean it's true.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      Keep in mind, this thread is about a small IT team in a small business, a private school. The needs for all that stuff doesn't apply to them, at all.

      Yet you somehow claim there's tons of KVM talent out there for them to pick from.

      That was the whole point of all of this. The only people hiring KVM expertise are enterprises and mainly tech ones. Sure some companies like DO hire them but that's maybe only a handful since the company only has 500 some employees total.

      The KVM talent is eaten up by large companies that pay them well because it's hard to do correctly. And with the current landscape it's getting more and more specialized. When I can spin up vms with kubevirt automatically and have it orchestrate and manage them for me, the uses for bare KVM are much smaller.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @irj said in KVM or VMWare:

      These are trends anymore. They are best practices.

      Wow, um, no. Anything but. The absolutely, total opposite. Best practice means that there is essentially no exception. These aren't even "good for the majority."

      That's just plain incorrect.

      We work with large companies ranging from DoD (Platform One, GD, ), to Walmart, to big 4 accounting, to even training Red Hat. We also work with small companies down to 4-5 IT/devs. You are out of touch. All of them want CNCF landscape cloud native tooling. Some still use more legacy tools like Jenkins, but still want cloud native.

      Just because the local branch of the single fortune 10 company you say that you work with uses on prem servers means nothing.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:

      Maybe we need to level set on what "KVM talent" means.

      In the context of support for an SMB, like is the context of this thread and to meet or beat what is expected of a Fortune 100 hiring standard KVM support staff, it is someone who can manage licensing, consult and system design, install and implement the bare metal install, storage setup, performance tuning, updates, patches, networking, at least consult on backups, essential monitoring and automation, troubleshoot issues with all of the above. The ability to work with multiple tools, to work from the command line, etc. and, most importantly, the ability to reach out to highly level support meaningfully if more is needed.

      A low bar, but the bar for any baseline talent should be.

      Yeah this just doesn't widely exist.

      You still haven't pointed to any companies that provide KVM expertise (excluding yours because you're making the claim and truthfully I don't think you have it either).

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      Maybe we need to level set on what "KVM talent" means.

      posted in IT Discussion
      stacksofplatesS
      stacksofplates
    • RE: KVM or VMWare

      @scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:

      @jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:

      @scottalanmiller you are out of touch. You have not had a real job in years, and your big business job was more than a decade ago.

      I know I am out of touch, I do keep minor reading on tools and processes though. Even if I am unable to implement them or truly learn them. But your blatant refusal to admit as much and update yourself is clearly showing.

      Sure, lots of the SMB mediocrity is still all about the local virtualization. Hell, I still see physical servers on occasion.

      But that is not where things are moving.

      I have bank experience currently, though. Just this week, the KVM over VMware discussion came up and KVM won, hands down. It wasn't even close. And that was with VMware themselves pitching their solution.

      I just simply don't believe this unless it's a no name single branch bank somewhere. In which case, his original point still stands.

      posted in IT Discussion
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