The Other Side is not dumb
-
Don't get me wrong. Work study has a purpose and is useful for students who need it, although we get into the other argument we've gone over far too often, but it doesn't provide the experience, training, or mentoring that an internship should.
-
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
Don't get me wrong. Work study has a purpose and is useful for students who need it, although we get into the other argument we've gone over far too often, but it doesn't provide the experience, training, or mentoring that an internship should.
Work study is just a job. Nothing wrong with jobs. It's lying about said job to try to get career credit for being a pity-employed, minimum wage secretary instead of interning in the field that you are supposed to be getting experience for. It's not even a real job as you are literally paying to have said job, so even calling it a job is questionable.
-
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
Ah ok, thanks. Isn't there something like an intern time in school? Our kids need to do that for a few weeks per year (like 2 or 4?). Really enjoyed that myself and did even more voluntary interns during summer holidays (6 weeks here). Installed my first Novel Netware server during one
HAHAHAHA. You are kidding, right? Interning in the US? From school? No way. Literally the only information most Americans get about interning is "we hear they do something like that in Germany." I kid you not.
No, high schools do nothing like this. It is so foreign from American thinking to have high schoolers intern that even offering high school intern programs (NTG does this) gets you zero interns. The schools won't promote it or help, there is no allowance for it (it has to be done outside of business hours when kids have no school activities to interfere), most parents won't allow their kids to do it and the kids have almost no interest because no one else does it and they've never heard of such a thing.
On the other hand, because no one does it, the rare ones that seek it out like @Mike-Ralston and myself get massive career advantages because of it... we aren't slightly ahead of the other kids, we end up 4 - 10 years ahead in our careers! The advantage becomes insane. @Mike-Ralston was further ahead at 17 years old than the kids in his same class who turned down the same internships will be at 23+. And he will hold that advantage for the rest of his career, a career that will be eight or nine years longer than theirs.
In the US it is extremely rare even for colleges and universities to have internships. I attended six universities and out of them only two did this, one required it and it was a really big deal that they did and no one else did it at the time; and the other I was the only person who accepted an internship in my program. That's how rare it is.
Our educational systems are completely different, sure, but no internships at all? How are the kids supposed to choose a job? This is just... facepalm.
-
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
Ah ok, thanks. Isn't there something like an intern time in school? Our kids need to do that for a few weeks per year (like 2 or 4?). Really enjoyed that myself and did even more voluntary interns during summer holidays (6 weeks here). Installed my first Novel Netware server during one
HAHAHAHA. You are kidding, right? Interning in the US? From school? No way. Literally the only information most Americans get about interning is "we hear they do something like that in Germany." I kid you not.
No, high schools do nothing like this. It is so foreign from American thinking to have high schoolers intern that even offering high school intern programs (NTG does this) gets you zero interns. The schools won't promote it or help, there is no allowance for it (it has to be done outside of business hours when kids have no school activities to interfere), most parents won't allow their kids to do it and the kids have almost no interest because no one else does it and they've never heard of such a thing.
On the other hand, because no one does it, the rare ones that seek it out like @Mike-Ralston and myself get massive career advantages because of it... we aren't slightly ahead of the other kids, we end up 4 - 10 years ahead in our careers! The advantage becomes insane. @Mike-Ralston was further ahead at 17 years old than the kids in his same class who turned down the same internships will be at 23+. And he will hold that advantage for the rest of his career, a career that will be eight or nine years longer than theirs.
In the US it is extremely rare even for colleges and universities to have internships. I attended six universities and out of them only two did this, one required it and it was a really big deal that they did and no one else did it at the time; and the other I was the only person who accepted an internship in my program. That's how rare it is.
Our educational systems are completely different, sure, but no internships at all? How are the kids supposed to choose a job? This is just... facepalm.
Exactly. On top of that a lot of companies offering internships here, at least locally, see it more as free labor then anything else. Very little actual mentoring and discovery being allowed.
-
@coliver This I've noticed as well.
Hey you can use this as an internship, but go sweep the floor...
-
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
Ah ok, thanks. Isn't there something like an intern time in school? Our kids need to do that for a few weeks per year (like 2 or 4?). Really enjoyed that myself and did even more voluntary interns during summer holidays (6 weeks here). Installed my first Novel Netware server during one
HAHAHAHA. You are kidding, right? Interning in the US? From school? No way. Literally the only information most Americans get about interning is "we hear they do something like that in Germany." I kid you not.
No, high schools do nothing like this. It is so foreign from American thinking to have high schoolers intern that even offering high school intern programs (NTG does this) gets you zero interns. The schools won't promote it or help, there is no allowance for it (it has to be done outside of business hours when kids have no school activities to interfere), most parents won't allow their kids to do it and the kids have almost no interest because no one else does it and they've never heard of such a thing.
On the other hand, because no one does it, the rare ones that seek it out like @Mike-Ralston and myself get massive career advantages because of it... we aren't slightly ahead of the other kids, we end up 4 - 10 years ahead in our careers! The advantage becomes insane. @Mike-Ralston was further ahead at 17 years old than the kids in his same class who turned down the same internships will be at 23+. And he will hold that advantage for the rest of his career, a career that will be eight or nine years longer than theirs.
In the US it is extremely rare even for colleges and universities to have internships. I attended six universities and out of them only two did this, one required it and it was a really big deal that they did and no one else did it at the time; and the other I was the only person who accepted an internship in my program. That's how rare it is.
Our educational systems are completely different, sure, but no internships at all? How are the kids supposed to choose a job? This is just... facepalm.
Exactly. On top of that a lot of companies offering internships here, at least locally, see it more as free labor then anything else. Very little actual mentoring and discovery being allowed.
I'm not going to tell you about our 3y post-school vocational training here at this point...
-
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver This I've noticed as well.
Hey you can use this as an internship, but go sweep the floor...
It's crazy. They even get aggravated when the intern doesn't meet their expectations, even though they are holding them to the expectations of the full employee and not actually doing any training/teaching. "I know you don't have any real world experience or on-the-job training but I expected you to perform as well as our full time employees."
-
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
Ah ok, thanks. Isn't there something like an intern time in school? Our kids need to do that for a few weeks per year (like 2 or 4?). Really enjoyed that myself and did even more voluntary interns during summer holidays (6 weeks here). Installed my first Novel Netware server during one
HAHAHAHA. You are kidding, right? Interning in the US? From school? No way. Literally the only information most Americans get about interning is "we hear they do something like that in Germany." I kid you not.
No, high schools do nothing like this. It is so foreign from American thinking to have high schoolers intern that even offering high school intern programs (NTG does this) gets you zero interns. The schools won't promote it or help, there is no allowance for it (it has to be done outside of business hours when kids have no school activities to interfere), most parents won't allow their kids to do it and the kids have almost no interest because no one else does it and they've never heard of such a thing.
On the other hand, because no one does it, the rare ones that seek it out like @Mike-Ralston and myself get massive career advantages because of it... we aren't slightly ahead of the other kids, we end up 4 - 10 years ahead in our careers! The advantage becomes insane. @Mike-Ralston was further ahead at 17 years old than the kids in his same class who turned down the same internships will be at 23+. And he will hold that advantage for the rest of his career, a career that will be eight or nine years longer than theirs.
In the US it is extremely rare even for colleges and universities to have internships. I attended six universities and out of them only two did this, one required it and it was a really big deal that they did and no one else did it at the time; and the other I was the only person who accepted an internship in my program. That's how rare it is.
Our educational systems are completely different, sure, but no internships at all? How are the kids supposed to choose a job? This is just... facepalm.
Exactly. On top of that a lot of companies offering internships here, at least locally, see it more as free labor then anything else. Very little actual mentoring and discovery being allowed.
I'm not going to tell you about our 3y post-school vocational training here at this point...
Don't get us wrong, internships very much have the stigma of cheap / semi-skilled labor. Which often carries the "do these menial jobs" and get credit.
But it should absolutely have standards of shadowing / mentoring and real world work pertaining to what the student is going to school for.
-
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
Ah ok, thanks. Isn't there something like an intern time in school? Our kids need to do that for a few weeks per year (like 2 or 4?). Really enjoyed that myself and did even more voluntary interns during summer holidays (6 weeks here). Installed my first Novel Netware server during one
HAHAHAHA. You are kidding, right? Interning in the US? From school? No way. Literally the only information most Americans get about interning is "we hear they do something like that in Germany." I kid you not.
No, high schools do nothing like this. It is so foreign from American thinking to have high schoolers intern that even offering high school intern programs (NTG does this) gets you zero interns. The schools won't promote it or help, there is no allowance for it (it has to be done outside of business hours when kids have no school activities to interfere), most parents won't allow their kids to do it and the kids have almost no interest because no one else does it and they've never heard of such a thing.
On the other hand, because no one does it, the rare ones that seek it out like @Mike-Ralston and myself get massive career advantages because of it... we aren't slightly ahead of the other kids, we end up 4 - 10 years ahead in our careers! The advantage becomes insane. @Mike-Ralston was further ahead at 17 years old than the kids in his same class who turned down the same internships will be at 23+. And he will hold that advantage for the rest of his career, a career that will be eight or nine years longer than theirs.
In the US it is extremely rare even for colleges and universities to have internships. I attended six universities and out of them only two did this, one required it and it was a really big deal that they did and no one else did it at the time; and the other I was the only person who accepted an internship in my program. That's how rare it is.
Our educational systems are completely different, sure, but no internships at all? How are the kids supposed to choose a job? This is just... facepalm.
Exactly. On top of that a lot of companies offering internships here, at least locally, see it more as free labor then anything else. Very little actual mentoring and discovery being allowed.
I'm not going to tell you about our 3y post-school vocational training here at this point...
Don't get us wrong, internships very much have the stigma of cheap / semi-skilled labor. Which often carries the "do these menial jobs" and get credit.
But it should absolutely have standards of shadowing / mentoring and real world work pertaining to what the student is going to school for.
This may just be small companies that I interact with regularly. I know several large organizations that have extensive internship programs.
-
@coliver It could be, a small business likely doesn't have a solid system to control the internship program to intern work.
-
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
Ah ok, thanks. Isn't there something like an intern time in school? Our kids need to do that for a few weeks per year (like 2 or 4?). Really enjoyed that myself and did even more voluntary interns during summer holidays (6 weeks here). Installed my first Novel Netware server during one
HAHAHAHA. You are kidding, right? Interning in the US? From school? No way. Literally the only information most Americans get about interning is "we hear they do something like that in Germany." I kid you not.
No, high schools do nothing like this. It is so foreign from American thinking to have high schoolers intern that even offering high school intern programs (NTG does this) gets you zero interns. The schools won't promote it or help, there is no allowance for it (it has to be done outside of business hours when kids have no school activities to interfere), most parents won't allow their kids to do it and the kids have almost no interest because no one else does it and they've never heard of such a thing.
On the other hand, because no one does it, the rare ones that seek it out like @Mike-Ralston and myself get massive career advantages because of it... we aren't slightly ahead of the other kids, we end up 4 - 10 years ahead in our careers! The advantage becomes insane. @Mike-Ralston was further ahead at 17 years old than the kids in his same class who turned down the same internships will be at 23+. And he will hold that advantage for the rest of his career, a career that will be eight or nine years longer than theirs.
In the US it is extremely rare even for colleges and universities to have internships. I attended six universities and out of them only two did this, one required it and it was a really big deal that they did and no one else did it at the time; and the other I was the only person who accepted an internship in my program. That's how rare it is.
Our educational systems are completely different, sure, but no internships at all? How are the kids supposed to choose a job? This is just... facepalm.
Exactly. On top of that a lot of companies offering internships here, at least locally, see it more as free labor then anything else. Very little actual mentoring and discovery being allowed.
I'm not going to tell you about our 3y post-school vocational training here at this point...
Don't get us wrong, internships very much have the stigma of cheap / semi-skilled labor. Which often carries the "do these menial jobs" and get credit.
But it should absolutely have standards of shadowing / mentoring and real world work pertaining to what the student is going to school for.
Well, our internships during school are not exactly standardized as far as I know, but the kids are supposed to write a little report and a daily diary. On top of that, their class teacher will visit them at work one or two times during that. And this is definitely not about cheap workers.
-
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
Ah ok, thanks. Isn't there something like an intern time in school? Our kids need to do that for a few weeks per year (like 2 or 4?). Really enjoyed that myself and did even more voluntary interns during summer holidays (6 weeks here). Installed my first Novel Netware server during one
HAHAHAHA. You are kidding, right? Interning in the US? From school? No way. Literally the only information most Americans get about interning is "we hear they do something like that in Germany." I kid you not.
No, high schools do nothing like this. It is so foreign from American thinking to have high schoolers intern that even offering high school intern programs (NTG does this) gets you zero interns. The schools won't promote it or help, there is no allowance for it (it has to be done outside of business hours when kids have no school activities to interfere), most parents won't allow their kids to do it and the kids have almost no interest because no one else does it and they've never heard of such a thing.
On the other hand, because no one does it, the rare ones that seek it out like @Mike-Ralston and myself get massive career advantages because of it... we aren't slightly ahead of the other kids, we end up 4 - 10 years ahead in our careers! The advantage becomes insane. @Mike-Ralston was further ahead at 17 years old than the kids in his same class who turned down the same internships will be at 23+. And he will hold that advantage for the rest of his career, a career that will be eight or nine years longer than theirs.
In the US it is extremely rare even for colleges and universities to have internships. I attended six universities and out of them only two did this, one required it and it was a really big deal that they did and no one else did it at the time; and the other I was the only person who accepted an internship in my program. That's how rare it is.
Our educational systems are completely different, sure, but no internships at all? How are the kids supposed to choose a job? This is just... facepalm.
Exactly. On top of that a lot of companies offering internships here, at least locally, see it more as free labor then anything else. Very little actual mentoring and discovery being allowed.
I'm not going to tell you about our 3y post-school vocational training here at this point...
Don't get us wrong, internships very much have the stigma of cheap / semi-skilled labor. Which often carries the "do these menial jobs" and get credit.
But it should absolutely have standards of shadowing / mentoring and real world work pertaining to what the student is going to school for.
Well, our internships during school are not exactly standardized as far as I know, but the kids are supposed to write a little report and a daily diary. On top of that, their class teacher will visit them at work one or two times during that. And this is definitely not about cheap workers.
I'm not to certain about whether or not the professor would actually visit the interns at the internship.. I doubt it.....
-
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
Our educational systems are completely different, sure, but no internships at all? How are the kids supposed to choose a job? This is just... facepalm.
Well, you aren't. You are supposed to go to college and not go to work to make unemployment numbers look better. Once out of college, you take whatever job is offered to you, not one that you choose.
-
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
Exactly. On top of that a lot of companies offering internships here, at least locally, see it more as free labor then anything else. Very little actual mentoring and discovery being allowed.
Which violates the title. Legally, sadly, the US allows you to use any title you want, so you can call any minimum wage job an "internship" as long as you don't violate other labour laws. If someone is to be an actual intern, with or without the title, they have to meet other qualifications but kids don't know to look for the labour law situation before taking jobs.
-
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver This I've noticed as well.
Hey you can use this as an internship, but go sweep the floor...
Yeah, like the UofR.
-
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
Don't get us wrong, internships very much have the stigma of cheap / semi-skilled labor. Which often carries the "do these menial jobs" and get credit.
But it should absolutely have standards of shadowing / mentoring and real world work pertaining to what the student is going to school for.
That exists and interns sadly need to take more legal action for employment fraud in the US.
-
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
This may just be small companies that I interact with regularly. I know several large organizations that have extensive internship programs.
Yes, one of the things that people in the SMB rarely witness is just how honest, helpful and genuine enterprise employment normally is. Intern programs are abundant and real, the value is high, people switch around to many jobs, etc.
-
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver It could be, a small business likely doesn't have a solid system to control the internship program to intern work.
Sure, but why don't they? because they don't want to.
-
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@thwr said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@scottalanmiller said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@coliver said in The Other Side is not dumb:
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
The issue comes from the mindset of no child left behind, college is the "dream" a better life by being educated.
People confuse education at college, and education from the workforce.
You can get a great education by working at an electricians for example, and become a licensed electrician in only 2 years, while getting paid to be there the entire time.
In college, you pay to be there, are forced to study things which likely have no real world bearing on your future career and are often saying "WTF am I doing here this is STUPID"
Yes aren't motivated to go find a job.
I'd argue that those other things have a lot more value then the actual career training you get from college. An intermediate economics and psychology course can go a long way. If you want to be formally educated for education sake then those courses are fantastic. College is good for that but not good for career advancement and expertise, unless it is a requirement for those careers.
My point about the No child left behind initiative is that some children will grow up to not be educated, no matter what.
I'm not saying to just cut them lose, but I am recommending that some form of trade school replaces primary schooling when it becomes apparent that a "normal" education isn't working.
Even trade school is a waste to a huge percentage of the population. Think about all of the people who will never do anything more than flipping burgers - they would benefit most by not wasting time in school and starting to earn a living earlier. The earning potential of a burger flipper goes way up if they start doing so at age 14 instead of at age 22. That's a huge amount of "putting money away for their future" potential, especially if they still lived at home without expenses until they were eighteen.
The trouble here is that no 14 year old knows that they are only going to have the potential to flip burgers their entire life.
Everyone hopes to do more, so to take away that chance isn't fair.
Tons know. I'd guess by far most of them know. I knew tons of people in high school that knew perfectly well that middle school was the "peak" of their careers, that they had Petered out (via the Peter Principle) and that what they were able to do at that age (short of heavy lifting items) was all that they would ever be able to do.
The difference between knowing and accepting are completely different. If I knew at 14 I was only going to be able to flip burgers for the rest of my life I would've just ended it.
I never had a burger job, but knew I'd hate it if I had.
#takeyourselfout
Is there a reason for the social stigma against minimum wage earners? Is it the same in other countries?
I don't think so and I think all Americans should be forced to work minimum wage jobs. It's important in learning how to work, how other people work, learning to respect each other, learning why employment laws exist, learning why unions are agents of big business, etc.
You mean that in the context of not having a job is not an option but you have to take a job assigned to you? Dunno how to explain that any better in English.
Now if so, this is bad. Really bad. We have that system here. When our whole social system was overhauled (Hartz4), things went south for the most part. There's something called 1-Euro-Job (means 1 EUR per hour) for people having no job for more that maybe 2 years or so. The must do some crazy stuff like picking dirt in parks, working alongside normally pair workers in factories and what not, no matter what their education is. The idea behind was that they will be integrated into the market again. The reality is, that the system gets heavily abused for cheapo workforce, even destroying other jobs.
The context being more like ....
When you are sixteen you should be forced to spend one year working in one of the standard minimum wage jobs so that you understand what it is like to work like that. Of course, the pressures of life will not be there and there will be other problems. But I definitely plan to make my kids work like that. I did and it was the best thing for me. I did it for like five years. It was hell. And it taught me to be hard working, taught me life skills, made me understand people who do manual labour, made me understand how much buying power low paying jobs have (more than people think), how to live on little money, cook for myself, and other life skills.
Ah ok, thanks. Isn't there something like an intern time in school? Our kids need to do that for a few weeks per year (like 2 or 4?). Really enjoyed that myself and did even more voluntary interns during summer holidays (6 weeks here). Installed my first Novel Netware server during one
HAHAHAHA. You are kidding, right? Interning in the US? From school? No way. Literally the only information most Americans get about interning is "we hear they do something like that in Germany." I kid you not.
No, high schools do nothing like this. It is so foreign from American thinking to have high schoolers intern that even offering high school intern programs (NTG does this) gets you zero interns. The schools won't promote it or help, there is no allowance for it (it has to be done outside of business hours when kids have no school activities to interfere), most parents won't allow their kids to do it and the kids have almost no interest because no one else does it and they've never heard of such a thing.
On the other hand, because no one does it, the rare ones that seek it out like @Mike-Ralston and myself get massive career advantages because of it... we aren't slightly ahead of the other kids, we end up 4 - 10 years ahead in our careers! The advantage becomes insane. @Mike-Ralston was further ahead at 17 years old than the kids in his same class who turned down the same internships will be at 23+. And he will hold that advantage for the rest of his career, a career that will be eight or nine years longer than theirs.
In the US it is extremely rare even for colleges and universities to have internships. I attended six universities and out of them only two did this, one required it and it was a really big deal that they did and no one else did it at the time; and the other I was the only person who accepted an internship in my program. That's how rare it is.
Our educational systems are completely different, sure, but no internships at all? How are the kids supposed to choose a job? This is just... facepalm.
Exactly. On top of that a lot of companies offering internships here, at least locally, see it more as free labor then anything else. Very little actual mentoring and discovery being allowed.
I'm not going to tell you about our 3y post-school vocational training here at this point...
Don't get us wrong, internships very much have the stigma of cheap / semi-skilled labor. Which often carries the "do these menial jobs" and get credit.
But it should absolutely have standards of shadowing / mentoring and real world work pertaining to what the student is going to school for.
Well, our internships during school are not exactly standardized as far as I know, but the kids are supposed to write a little report and a daily diary. On top of that, their class teacher will visit them at work one or two times during that. And this is definitely not about cheap workers.
It's not legally about cheap labour in the US either. You either have to make them a normal employee and pay them as usual and then they aren't an intern. Or they work for "free", can never do any work that directly benefits the company and must have a mentor assigned to them that is training them. A true intern is very expensive to keep.
-
@DustinB3403 said in The Other Side is not dumb:
I'm not to certain about whether or not the professor would actually visit the interns at the internship.. I doubt it.....
We've established, they are lying about the term intern. They are just word study minimum wage workers.
