So we are leaving..............
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@scottalanmiller said
If the media saying stupid things like that causes people to vote emotionally instead of based on their own research and facts, it really just justifies the media acting that way, right? Because in the end, no one forces people to use the big media for this stuff.
Big media is a circus on it's own, I'm talking about the mouth-pieces of the campaign for either side, the decision makers who chose the arguments, the Camerons and the Farages and the others involved.
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@MattSpeller said in So we are leaving..............:
@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
(who is widely considered a dangerous clown)
Infinite upvotes.
A dangerous clown who knows how to entertain, He is playing the game very very well.
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@DustinB3403 said in So we are leaving..............:
Well it's not like the US or the EU is going to invade the UK and take over.
That's not actually a certain statement. The EU has certainly hinted that this is a viable option and Spain has effectively openly said that it will happen in Gibraltar (if Gibraltar doesn't secede voluntarily which is pretty likely). I highly doubt that troops will move, but it is definitely not 100% off of the table. I've even heard of political speakers in London requesting a German/French joint military move to at least secure EU interests in London.
Remember, in a situation like this, you have EU citizens feeling as though their rights and citizenship is being stripped by force and the EU has a certain responsibility to protect its citizens from harm like this. So there is a lot of grey area if a group of people (like Scotland, London, Gibraltar) begin to look at an Imperial vote carried by other regions as oppression rather than as democracy.
And the US is certainly not coming in with bombs and guns, 100% sure that that won't happen. But a political invasion is exactly why Trump is pushing for the Brexit. This is a "not even slightly veiled" attempt to trick the British into turning over their effective sovereignty to the US. Will that work? Who knows. Is that what the US is hoping for? Almost certainly.
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said
If the media saying stupid things like that causes people to vote emotionally instead of based on their own research and facts, it really just justifies the media acting that way, right? Because in the end, no one forces people to use the big media for this stuff.
Big media is a circus on it's own, I'm talking about the mouth-pieces of the campaign for either side, the decision makers who chose the arguments, the Camerons and the Farages and the others involved.
They are really just media themselves, in this case.
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@MattSpeller Why did you delete that. You were correct.
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@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@MattSpeller Why did you delete that. You were correct.
I missed it..
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@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@MattSpeller Why did you delete that. You were correct.
Being correct is good but I was derailing this hard
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said
Only one of the two sides could be "with Trump" because Trump only agreed with one side.
But your assumption is (quite wrongly) that people are with or against Trump. Trump was only used as a flag by the remain crowd who said "Look at this lunatic, you don't want to be like him do you" and all that did was anger the leave crowd and galvanised the ones in the middle.
No, that is not my assumption. I'm only saying that one camp was aligned to his wishes and one was not. And I said that from the outside the UK looks weak because it appears to be cowering before Trump and following him down the rabbit hole of fear and panic. But I never said that they were voting that way because of Trump, only that they were voting how he wanted.
But no matter what, in the end they DID want to "be like Trump" regardless of whether they were wanting to be how "trump is" or just share his values and goals.
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@MattSpeller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@MattSpeller Why did you delete that. You were correct.
Being correct is good but I was derailing this hard
Ah, that makes sense.
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
Instead of talking about the real issues, they focused on the BS like "Do you want to support XYZ" - More so than Trump (who is widely considered a dangerous clown) the name Farage is passed around a lot.
Of course, that's a standard playbook with all democracies. But the people could do their own analysis and research, no one is beholden to the marketing of the campaign leaders.
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@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said
Only one of the two sides could be "with Trump" because Trump only agreed with one side.
But your assumption is (quite wrongly) that people are with or against Trump. Trump was only used as a flag by the remain crowd who said "Look at this lunatic, you don't want to be like him do you" and all that did was anger the leave crowd and galvanised the ones in the middle.
No, that is not my assumption. I'm only saying that one camp was aligned to his wishes and one was not. And I said that from the outside the UK looks weak because it appears to be cowering before Trump and following him down the rabbit hole of fear and panic. But I never said that they were voting that way because of Trump, only that they were voting how he wanted.
But no matter what, in the end they DID want to "be like Trump" regardless of whether they were wanting to be how "trump is" or just share his values and goals.
So if Trump loses the race for the presidency, what do you think the UK will end up doing?
If they're following Trump's rhetoric, one would assume that they really REALLY want him to be the president.
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It's been done, now one of 3 things will happen.
A golden age will take place and our economy will be 200% better.
Armageddon will fall upon us and lots of middle class kids won't be able to take gap years around Europe anymore (sniffle)
This entire thing will be over-turned and we'll stay in the EU anyway.I'll just leave this here.
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Stuff this, tea party on the ceiling.
Anyone want to join me?
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@DustinB3403 said in So we are leaving..............:
Being an "American" (take that in every way you possible can) I just don't really see the big deal.
To me, trades will change for that part of the world, commerce will certainly change as well. Population movements will likely change as well.
But how does this effect me?
I'm just not seeing why I should care. Besides being something to talk about.
So here is my view on this from the left side of the pond perspective:
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Trade will change for "that part of the world" and America is more in that part of the world than in any other. Not only is the EU the world's largest economy, it is America's largest partner in everything from economics, trade, defence, etc. America is about second in line for having the biggest impact from this.
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This will likely tank the global economy for a significant portion of our lifetimes. This is huge.
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This changes the global balance of power and greatly diminishes sensible Europe at a time when it is most needed. This move was heavily promoted by Trump who, in turn, is heavily promoted by Putin because Putin (and the entire east) see Trump as an easily manipulated puppet that wants Putin's approval and lives in abject fear of everything so Russia will be pulling his strings (already is, the Balkans laugh about the US being a joke now.) Likewise, the UK is seen as likely following the US here and becoming a near puppet of the US as their influence falls to near zero (think about how trivial Texas' voice would be if they were their own country.) So this is an insanely large power play for the CIS and possibly the trigger of the largest balance of power in post WW2 era. The UK just played into Russian hands to break up the single largest hedge against insanity in the world.
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The fear based vote in the UK will have massive political influence in the US and likely just got Trump elected as the stories of the two are tightly entwined. This was a proxy Trump / Putin political victory and no matter what the Brits think happened, this is how it will influence the US and Russia.
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The American sphere of influence just dropped dramatically. The UK was America's primary voice in Europe. That's gone. The most powerful block in the world is now very, very independent of American influence (this I see as a very positive move, I'm certainly not anti-Brexit, just anti-Brexit for the UK.)
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Just as the EU might break up from this, this is easily the beginning of the breakup of the US as well. Texas is next up for wanting to leave. And if Texas goes, many US regions have a strong interest to not be all one country. Less likely, of course, but very possible and this move will show American regions that it can happen. Texas and the UK have been being compared throughout the entire process; the US is very entangled here.
I truly believe in twenty years you will look back and say that no single event, at least not one done politically, will have been as big, even for the US, as this unless the US breaks up itself and even that, will likely be triggered from this so would be related.
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@DustinB3403 said in So we are leaving..............:
If they're following Trump's rhetoric, one would assume that they really REALLY want him to be the president.
No, they still hate him. But they don't hate him more than they agree with his values. Hence why they follow what he wants while not exactly following him. He's not their leader, but he is walking the trail in front of them. If that makes sense.
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
Stuff this, tea party on the ceiling.
Anyone want to join me?
Earl Grey, extra bergamot, clear & piping hot please. Chocolate digestives for a biccy?
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@Breffni-Potter said in So we are leaving..............:
This entire thing will be over-turned and we'll stay in the EU anyway.
There is a LOT of chance of this.
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@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@gjacobse said in So we are leaving..............:
I've not really followed the issue to know which side has more benefit - Member or non-Member of the EU. So I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. I suppose time will tell...
Depends, it doesn't make sense to leave from an economic standpoint. It doesn't really make sense to leave from a social standpoint. One of the biggest arguments was that the EU was forcing the UK to open its borders to refugees and immigrants, leaving the EU allowed the UK to better protect itself from those forces.
"Protect itself" from helping those in need is the basic premise we hear in the EU.
No argument there... I agree with you but was trying to present the argument in an unbiased way.
I think protecting itself implies a danger rather than a dislike for helping those of non-European heritage. It's not about danger, it's about dislike. Which is why so many people are so upset about how the vote went from the outside. That the US is anti-Semitic is well known and the level of open racism in the US is what it is. The UK was supposed to be better but this seems to be stooping to the American level and that is very upsetting. This will make it so much easier for Americans to carry on with it to yet another level in their next elections too. It's a snowball effect, just like in the 1920s. Not that it will happen, but this is how it starts.
^^ This. Period. Thanks Scott.
