So we are leaving..............
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@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
@momurda said in So we are leaving..............:
@Dashrender said in So we are leaving..............:
@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@gjacobse said in So we are leaving..............:
I've not really followed the issue to know which side has more benefit - Member or non-Member of the EU. So I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. I suppose time will tell...
Depends, it doesn't make sense to leave from an economic standpoint. It doesn't really make sense to leave from a social standpoint. One of the biggest arguments was that the EU was forcing the UK to open its borders to refugees and immigrants, leaving the EU allowed the UK to better protect itself from those forces.
"Protect itself" from helping those in need is the basic premise we hear in the EU.
No argument there... I agree with you but was trying to present the argument in an unbiased way.
I think protecting itself implies a danger rather than a dislike for helping those of non-European heritage. It's not about danger, it's about dislike. Which is why so many people are so upset about how the vote went from the outside. That the US is anti-Semitic is well known and the level of open racism in the US is what it is. The UK was supposed to be better but this seems to be stooping to the American level and that is very upsetting. This will make it so much easier for Americans to carry on with it to yet another level in their next elections too. It's a snowball effect, just like in the 1920s. Not that it will happen, but this is how it starts.
^^ This. Period. Thanks Scott.
are you saying that trump is the next Hitler?
If he wont, I will. Listen to the fucking horseshit that comes out of his mouth. 'Ban muslims' that is all you need to hear. Then go read some of Hitler's speeches. Then tell me their differences. The fact that half of Americans agree with him is beyond disgusting, and proof that at least half of Americans are still racist shitbags(I am American).
Blame me for beeing a German citizen, I don't care in this case: What that scum did was something bestial, and I'm out for any Hitler comparisons. He just did something neither I nor anyone else can probably imagine. We Germans still have a hard time to get around this. There was just another sentence a few months ago against one of his last remaining soldiers: 97yr old Oskar Gröning was found guilty of "accessory to murder" (Google translator...) in roughly 300.000 cases.
So please, compare the next president with a chimp, I don't mind. But comparing someone to Hitler isn't something to be taken lightly.
If you don't feel that the comparison is a realistic one, you don't understand how scared we are. It's not taken lightly. The difference, and I'll give you this as a reason not to compare them, is that Hitler was a brilliant, talented statesman. Trump is a moronic, bumbling buffoon. So if the comparison is their desire, I truly believe Trump would be Hitler at the drop of a hat if he had the skill to be him. But if the comparison is capability then no, Trump doesn't have what it takes to be a true danger.
Don't get me wrong, I'm already scared enough at this point (see above, "Front national", what a name...). I'm sure that Trump will do all sort of weird things, even starting war maybe in some desert just to bring some more democracy to the world. But would he start to arrest all moslems in the USA and kill them one after another? I guess not. And that was my point about the Hitler comparsion: He was practicing genocide (can one say so?) at a very large scale.
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@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
There was a little more going on, like the economic crysis after WW1 for example, but we are getting a little offtopic here I guess.,
Not really, the world's fear of the Brexit vote is that the UK is voting itself down a path like the 1920s. Not that the UK is the Germany of the 1920s, far from it. But it might be the Hungary or the Romania of the 1920s... ready to be on the wrong side of others' bad decision making. I think that these concerns are directly related to any Brexit talk. Maybe to the British these things don't seem relevant. But to the rest of us, this is why the Brexit is so important.
Right now, it is the US going down the path that Germany took in the 1920s. And the UK might be provided the economic crisis trigger to be combined with the humanitarian crisis trigger.
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@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
. I'm sure that Trump will do all sort of weird things, even starting war maybe in some desert just to bring some more democracy to the world. But would he start to arrest all moslems in the USA and kill them one after another? I guess not.
Will he attempt to round up all Muslims in the USA? This is expected at this point.
Will he attempt to have them killed one after another? Many Americans feel that this is a realistic fear.
I have stopped Muslims moving to the US for their own safety. That Muslims might be rounded up and even worse, killed, isn't far fetched in the least at this point. Is it likely that it will happen? No. Is it likely that it will be attempted? I'd say yes or 50/50 at best. Things are getting very, very bad and the Brexit will accelerate this. Remember that the US had concentration camps before Germany did during WW2. And the US has rounded up minority groups and slaughtered them at gunpoint before under government supervision and direction. The US is who proposed the rounding up of the Jews. It's a very fine line between where we are now and the atrocities that we fear.
Our only realistic hope (other than Trump losing the election) is the very real possibility that he will be utterly impotent.
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@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
. I'm sure that Trump will do all sort of weird things, even starting war maybe in some desert just to bring some more democracy to the world. But would he start to arrest all moslems in the USA and kill them one after another? I guess not.
Will he attempt to round up all Muslims in the USA? This is expected at this point.
Will he attempt to have them killed one after another? Many Americans feel that this is a realistic fear.
I have stopped Muslims moving to the US for their own safety. That Muslims might be rounded up and even worse, killed, isn't far fetched in the least at this point. Is it likely that it will happen? No. Is it likely that it will be attempted? I'd say yes or 50/50 at best. Things are getting very, very bad and the Brexit will accelerate this. Remember that the US had concentration camps before Germany did during WW2. And the US has rounded up minority groups and slaughtered them at gunpoint before under government supervision and direction. The US is who proposed the rounding up of the Jews. It's a very fine line between where we are now and the atrocities that we fear.
Our only realistic hope (other than Trump losing the election) is the very real possibility that he will be utterly impotent.
Hopefully this will never happen, only time will tell. But as long as someone is stupid enough to believe all that BS about getting jobs, safer cities and whatvever else...
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@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
Hopefully this will never happen, only time will tell. But as long as someone is stupid enough to believe all that BS about getting jobs, safer cities and whatvever else...
You mean as long as the Muslims are being told that the US has those things? LOL That was a sad LOL, I guess. I mean, the US has that stuff in abundance compared to Syria these days. But not compared to, say, Lebanon, Oman, Morocco, etc. Not that they don't have their problems, of course they do. But the US is not a specific promised land, especially if you are Muslim. It is REALLY hard to make it here. And for Muslims, it's extra dangerous.
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@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
@momurda said in So we are leaving..............:
@Dashrender said in So we are leaving..............:
@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@gjacobse said in So we are leaving..............:
I've not really followed the issue to know which side has more benefit - Member or non-Member of the EU. So I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. I suppose time will tell...
Depends, it doesn't make sense to leave from an economic standpoint. It doesn't really make sense to leave from a social standpoint. One of the biggest arguments was that the EU was forcing the UK to open its borders to refugees and immigrants, leaving the EU allowed the UK to better protect itself from those forces.
"Protect itself" from helping those in need is the basic premise we hear in the EU.
No argument there... I agree with you but was trying to present the argument in an unbiased way.
I think protecting itself implies a danger rather than a dislike for helping those of non-European heritage. It's not about danger, it's about dislike. Which is why so many people are so upset about how the vote went from the outside. That the US is anti-Semitic is well known and the level of open racism in the US is what it is. The UK was supposed to be better but this seems to be stooping to the American level and that is very upsetting. This will make it so much easier for Americans to carry on with it to yet another level in their next elections too. It's a snowball effect, just like in the 1920s. Not that it will happen, but this is how it starts.
^^ This. Period. Thanks Scott.
are you saying that trump is the next Hitler?
If he wont, I will. Listen to the fucking horseshit that comes out of his mouth. 'Ban muslims' that is all you need to hear. Then go read some of Hitler's speeches. Then tell me their differences. The fact that half of Americans agree with him is beyond disgusting, and proof that at least half of Americans are still racist shitbags(I am American).
Blame me for beeing a German citizen, I don't care in this case: What that scum did was something bestial, and I'm out for any Hitler comparisons. He just did something neither I nor anyone else can probably imagine. We Germans still have a hard time to get around this. There was just another sentence a few months ago against one of his last remaining soldiers: 97yr old Oskar Gröning was found guilty of "accessory to murder" (Google translator...) in roughly 300.000 cases.
So please, compare the next president with a chimp, I don't mind. But comparing someone to Hitler isn't something to be taken lightly.
I am not saying this lightly. I am not terrified of Muslims, I am terrified of Trmup's rhetoric, and the tens of millions of voters that seem to agree with it.
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@momurda said in So we are leaving..............:
@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
@momurda said in So we are leaving..............:
@Dashrender said in So we are leaving..............:
@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@gjacobse said in So we are leaving..............:
I've not really followed the issue to know which side has more benefit - Member or non-Member of the EU. So I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. I suppose time will tell...
Depends, it doesn't make sense to leave from an economic standpoint. It doesn't really make sense to leave from a social standpoint. One of the biggest arguments was that the EU was forcing the UK to open its borders to refugees and immigrants, leaving the EU allowed the UK to better protect itself from those forces.
"Protect itself" from helping those in need is the basic premise we hear in the EU.
No argument there... I agree with you but was trying to present the argument in an unbiased way.
I think protecting itself implies a danger rather than a dislike for helping those of non-European heritage. It's not about danger, it's about dislike. Which is why so many people are so upset about how the vote went from the outside. That the US is anti-Semitic is well known and the level of open racism in the US is what it is. The UK was supposed to be better but this seems to be stooping to the American level and that is very upsetting. This will make it so much easier for Americans to carry on with it to yet another level in their next elections too. It's a snowball effect, just like in the 1920s. Not that it will happen, but this is how it starts.
^^ This. Period. Thanks Scott.
are you saying that trump is the next Hitler?
If he wont, I will. Listen to the fucking horseshit that comes out of his mouth. 'Ban muslims' that is all you need to hear. Then go read some of Hitler's speeches. Then tell me their differences. The fact that half of Americans agree with him is beyond disgusting, and proof that at least half of Americans are still racist shitbags(I am American).
Blame me for beeing a German citizen, I don't care in this case: What that scum did was something bestial, and I'm out for any Hitler comparisons. He just did something neither I nor anyone else can probably imagine. We Germans still have a hard time to get around this. There was just another sentence a few months ago against one of his last remaining soldiers: 97yr old Oskar Gröning was found guilty of "accessory to murder" (Google translator...) in roughly 300.000 cases.
So please, compare the next president with a chimp, I don't mind. But comparing someone to Hitler isn't something to be taken lightly.
I am not saying this lightly. I am not terrified of Muslims, I am terrified of Trmup's rhetoric, and the tens of millions of voters that seem to agree with it.
Sorry if I got you and @Dashrender wrong, but quite a few people DO take this very lightly and - how to say in English - we are very sensible about this topic
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@MattSpeller that train wreck scene is a bad way to derail a thread...
That's just cold....
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@DustinB3403 said in So we are leaving..............:
@MattSpeller that train wreck scene is a bad way to derail a thread...
That's just cold....
I'll be stoked if this is the one place on the whole internet that can calmly and logically discuss Trump and make parallels to historically relevant events. Apologies if it was a little blunt.
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I am horribly disappointed in how the US is proceeding.
It is not like this is even new to the US. Executive Order 9066 was not that damned long ago.
The US only trailed Germany by a bit.
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@thwr No offense was meant - I'm assuming you understand that - but I really have heard people compare Trump directly to Hitler when it comes to speeches. They say that when a politian is speaking this plainly, it's pretty clear their message, and it's right in line with Hitler.
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@Dashrender said in So we are leaving..............:
They say that when a politian is speaking this plainly, it's pretty clear their message, and it's right in line with Hitler.
I think the irony here is that no one would argue with you there
edit: yet
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@MattSpeller said in So we are leaving..............:
@Dashrender said in So we are leaving..............:
They say that when a politian is speaking this plainly, it's pretty clear their message, and it's right in line with Hitler.
I think the irony here is that no one would argue with you there
edit: yet
Probably not...
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@Dashrender said in So we are leaving..............:
@thwr No offense was meant - I'm assuming you understand that - but I really have heard people compare Trump directly to Hitler when it comes to speeches. They say that when a politian is speaking this plainly, it's pretty clear their message, and it's right in line with Hitler.
It's ok, I'm fine.
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His clearly exploitative approach is what bothers me the most I think.
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Speak directly to an audience about it's specific regional problem and promise to fix it, but with no specific steps or plan.
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When you are confronted with evidence that you hold incompatible ideas, tell the person to go fuck themselves.
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Revel in the applause you receive from your audience for this action because they all think you'll do what they want
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@MattSpeller said in So we are leaving..............:
@DustinB3403 said in So we are leaving..............:
@MattSpeller that train wreck scene is a bad way to derail a thread...
That's just cold....
I'll be stoked if this is the one place on the whole internet that can calmly and logically discuss Trump and make parallels to historically relevant events. Apologies if it was a little blunt.
The one and only place. It's rather amazing!
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@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
@momurda said in So we are leaving..............:
@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
@momurda said in So we are leaving..............:
@Dashrender said in So we are leaving..............:
@thwr said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@scottalanmiller said in So we are leaving..............:
@coliver said in So we are leaving..............:
@gjacobse said in So we are leaving..............:
I've not really followed the issue to know which side has more benefit - Member or non-Member of the EU. So I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. I suppose time will tell...
Depends, it doesn't make sense to leave from an economic standpoint. It doesn't really make sense to leave from a social standpoint. One of the biggest arguments was that the EU was forcing the UK to open its borders to refugees and immigrants, leaving the EU allowed the UK to better protect itself from those forces.
"Protect itself" from helping those in need is the basic premise we hear in the EU.
No argument there... I agree with you but was trying to present the argument in an unbiased way.
I think protecting itself implies a danger rather than a dislike for helping those of non-European heritage. It's not about danger, it's about dislike. Which is why so many people are so upset about how the vote went from the outside. That the US is anti-Semitic is well known and the level of open racism in the US is what it is. The UK was supposed to be better but this seems to be stooping to the American level and that is very upsetting. This will make it so much easier for Americans to carry on with it to yet another level in their next elections too. It's a snowball effect, just like in the 1920s. Not that it will happen, but this is how it starts.
^^ This. Period. Thanks Scott.
are you saying that trump is the next Hitler?
If he wont, I will. Listen to the fucking horseshit that comes out of his mouth. 'Ban muslims' that is all you need to hear. Then go read some of Hitler's speeches. Then tell me their differences. The fact that half of Americans agree with him is beyond disgusting, and proof that at least half of Americans are still racist shitbags(I am American).
Blame me for beeing a German citizen, I don't care in this case: What that scum did was something bestial, and I'm out for any Hitler comparisons. He just did something neither I nor anyone else can probably imagine. We Germans still have a hard time to get around this. There was just another sentence a few months ago against one of his last remaining soldiers: 97yr old Oskar Gröning was found guilty of "accessory to murder" (Google translator...) in roughly 300.000 cases.
So please, compare the next president with a chimp, I don't mind. But comparing someone to Hitler isn't something to be taken lightly.
I am not saying this lightly. I am not terrified of Muslims, I am terrified of Trmup's rhetoric, and the tens of millions of voters that seem to agree with it.
Sorry if I got you and @Dashrender wrong, but quite a few people DO take this very lightly and - how to say in English - we are very sensible about this topic
There is no doubt that the majority of the world take the Big H reference rather lightly. It is thrown about constantly which is a major problem not just for the obvious reason of pointless exaggeration but also because it leaves us without a simple, universal reference for when something is truly scary beyond imagination. At times when we need to convey that something is really that scary, we don't have a way to reliably do it.
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@JaredBusch said in So we are leaving..............:
I am horribly disappointed in how the US is proceeding.
It is not like this is even new to the US. Executive Order 9066 was not that damned long ago.
The US only trailed Germany by a bit.
And, I suspect, the tables would have been very much turned had it been the US outnumbered in the war rather than on the vastly weighted side of it. The US was distant, relatively safe and the Allied powers outnumbered the Axis powers dramatically. Flip that and if the US had been losing, if its neighbours had turned on it and it was fighting on US soil rather than in far distant locations I'm pretty certain that the greater horrors would have been in the US instead. Winning the war and being far removed from it did a lot to lessen the feeling of fear and panic.
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Just realized something epic about the UK Referendum..... it wasn't an actual vote and there was no self determination. Here is why....
The referendum was designed in such a way that one vote was for "Leave", the other was called "Stay" but that wasn't the determination; instead a vote for "Stay" was actually a vote for "vote again later. So let's diagram this....
10 VOTE
20 IF VOTE = STAY; GOTO 10
30 SLEEP 10
40 IF LEAVE; END -
How did the above program play out in the real world?
1973: VOTE
1973: VOTE = STAY
1973 - 2016: SLEEP
2016: VOTE
2016: VOTE = LEAVE
2016: EU ENDThis is the same as if there is a vote for "do we want democracy at all?" If you have a referendum for democracy itself, it will always follow the same path and will always, eventually, vote itself out of existence.
In this case the UK just forced a retry until their predetermined "end path" got selected. In this case it only took two tries. But no matter what, the system was designed to retry until Leave was selected. There was no other possible outcome.
