Windows 10 Auto Update
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@Dashrender said:
People love their food in their refrigerators, but you don't see redundant fridges in people house as a common thing (and when you do it's not for recover ability, it's there most often for extra cold space).
No, but you don't see people leaving them running out in the rain or flipping the power to them on or off every few minutes. Redundant fridges has nothing to do with this discussion. Running a fridge incorrectly because you abuse it would never be excused. We aren't talking about having backups even, here, we are simply talking about how to use your computer correctly. If the computer is seen as having no value to you, then running it poorly has no risks. If the computer has value to you and you mistreat it and bad things happen, that's your own fault.
This is simple... you treat it as it has value. If that value is zero, just log in as the admin. If it has value, you need to treat it like it has value. The only people who are risk are those that see value but won't be bothered to treat it correctly.
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@Dashrender said:
...expanding the name to Home IT Line would be much more understandable to the average person (especially IT persons).
Why would home people know it? It's an IT term.
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@BRRABill said:
It's like driving a car without checking your oil, tires, whatever.
Exactly, and we never blame tire or oil manufacturers for people not maintaining their cars. We blame people who buy something expensive that involves both their and other peoples' safety (the car) for not doing what is required to use it well.
I have a computer that has no "value" that does only one thing... video games. I run as the admin there. It never visits websites, it doesn't connect to anything else. It just runs Steam. That's it. It runs as a local admin for a reason. And I see zero value. If the machine gets hacked, it's burnable. I install a fresh OS and start over. I would never expect pity for having the machine vulnerable and I would never attach a value to it.
My work machine is carefully patched and protected and run like a serious machine because it is. I treat it like it has value because it does.
I calculate the risks of machines being compromised. I would never visit my bank from the video game machine, for example.
If home users have no value on their machines, never use them for anything where being compromised matters, then this conversation is moot, right?
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@scottalanmiller said:
... If the computer is seen as having no value to you, then running it poorly has no risks. If the computer has value to you and you mistreat it and bad things happen, that's your own fault.
This is simple... you treat it as it has value. If that value is zero, just log in as the admin. If it has value, you need to treat it like it has value. The only people who are risk are those that see value but won't be bothered to treat it correctly.
Learning car care requirements is something a parent typically passes along - where the general knowledge came from originally, or how it became part of the norm that changing the oil was a required thing, I can't say. But we clearly haven't come to that point in history yet.
Professionals in a given field will generally always be way ahead in the care arena on the given field, but the general public is way behind. And I feel that gap is increasing, not decreasing.
I agree that we are all each individually responsible for taking care of the things we consider important, but at the same time, and objective of those producing things should be to take as much of that burden off the end user as possible.
For example, I fully expect self driving cars to self schedule maintenance appointments as needed, and while you're working they will drive themselves to a shop, get fixed, oil changed, whatever, and you just get a bill. At some point after that starts happening, people will not even be aware that it's happening anymore.
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@Dashrender said:
Learning car care requirements is something a parent typically passes along - where the general knowledge came from originally, or how it became part of the norm that changing the oil was a required thing, I can't say. But we clearly haven't come to that point in history yet.
Well for a lot of people, computer care is the same way. And likewise, tons of people did not learn car care from their parents. Society just expects them to know. I know lots of people who had parents that could not drive or could not teach them anything about how to work on a car. When you don't know things, you have to evaluate the value and rely on professionals. It's not unique to cars or computers, it's a universal point of common sense.
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@Dashrender said:
...and objective of those producing things should be to take as much of that burden off the end user as possible.
Why should it be that? Nothing wrong with that, but it seems an odd ethical stance to believe that they should be handled in this way.
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@Dashrender said:
At some point after that starts happening, people will not even be aware that it's happening anymore.
Computers have long offered this level of service and 99% of people turn it down. I fully expect similar behaviour with cars. But this is a great point of just how extensive computer care has become and how much people avoid it.
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I think people put great value on the machines, but are unaware of the level they need to get to to maintain one.
That is the sticking/argument point.
Yes, oil needs to be changed, but our cars tell us that now, for the most part. Or we are given a service writeup with when to do it.
Nothing is given when my neighbor buys a new machine. In fact, they buy it, and it comes home with a fresh Admin account for them.
It would be like if they delivered your car without oil.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Really - you think the home user line is not running as a local admin?
Absolutely. t's the most fundamental rule of using computers well. If you run as the local admin, you fail every "test" IMHO. Everything. It's as "fail" as there can be.
This is complete and utter crap.
Your homeline for an IT user I can agree with. But not for the general populace. They are not required to and should not be required to know jack shit about their system in order to be a user of a system.
The onus is on the software vendor (Microsoft in this case) to fix their shit. and require non admin accounts by default.
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@JaredBusch said:
This is complete and utter crap.
Your homeline for an IT user I can agree with. But not for the general populace. They are not required to and should not be required to know jack shit about their system in order to be a user of a system.
The onus is on the software vendor (Microsoft in this case) to fix their shit. and require non admin accounts by default.
You've essentially said awesomely what I have not been able to do.
Putting a refrigerator in the rain is vastly different than expecting to be safe when you go online.
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@JaredBusch said:
Your homeline for an IT user I can agree with. But not for the general populace. They are not required to and should not be required to know jack shit about their system in order to be a user of a system.
I don't agree. We'd never excuse that in a car, why is your computer where you do your banking any different? You are expected to have a certain about of care and concern about all aspects of life. Computers are not a free pass to not do due diligence that is expected everywhere else.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
At some point after that starts happening, people will not even be aware that it's happening anymore.
Computers have long offered this level of service and 99% of people turn it down. I fully expect similar behaviour with cars. But this is a great point of just how extensive computer care has become and how much people avoid it.
People avoid it? What planet are you on? The entire conversation is that they have no idea it is needed.
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@BRRABill said:
The onus is on the software vendor (Microsoft in this case) to fix their shit. and require non admin accounts by default.
That's like saying that onus is on Chevy to buckle your seatbelt for you.
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@JaredBusch said:
People avoid it? What planet are you on? The entire conversation is that they have no idea it is needed.
But they are offered it everywhere that they turn, just like they are with their car. Where are things different?
Due diligence in all things.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
People avoid it? What planet are you on? The entire conversation is that they have no idea it is needed.
But they are offered it everywhere that they turn, just like they are with their car. Where are things different?
Due diligence in all things.
I think there is a sweet spot in regards to this. Yes they should know some things like basic maintenance etc. but I doubt all of us agree what is contained within that sweet spot knowledge-wise for our users.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
Your homeline for an IT user I can agree with. But not for the general populace. They are not required to and should not be required to know jack shit about their system in order to be a user of a system.
I don't agree. We'd never excuse that in a car, why is your computer where you do your banking any different? You are expected to have a certain about of care and concern about all aspects of life. Computers are not a free pass to not do due diligence that is expected everywhere else.
You can not agree all you want. But until the manufacturer changes the system to be secure it is NOT the users onus.
Your response about people being expected to know about the oil change is also misguided and incorrect. Society has no expectation that you just "know" anything. The manufacturers put warning systems in modern cars to tell people when to go get an oil change. The only time you can fail that is to intentionally ignore the big amber light on your dashboard. Yes people do that, and then I will hold that it is their fault. Most people will see the light and check the manual or call the shop, or ask someone what it means and then take the appropriate action.
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@scottalanmiller said:
That's like saying that onus is on Chevy to buckle your seatbelt for you.
If everything on the computer was as easy as buckling your seatbelt there wouldn't be an issue.
If there was a seat belt click to protect you from malware and deleted files and everything else, we wouldn't need to have this conversation.
The car company has given you crumple zones, and air bags, and seatbelts, and all you have to do is one thing.
Why can't computers be like that?
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
People avoid it? What planet are you on? The entire conversation is that they have no idea it is needed.
But they are offered it everywhere that they turn, just like they are with their car. Where are things different?
Due diligence in all things.
I think there is a sweet spot in regards to this. Yes they should know some things like basic maintenance etc. but I doubt all of us agree what is contained within that sweet spot knowledge-wise for our users.
Of course, and the most basic thing is not running as admin and the second most basic is reading things before you accept them. There has to be a minimum level of caring, at some point we can't help people.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
People avoid it? What planet are you on? The entire conversation is that they have no idea it is needed.
But they are offered it everywhere that they turn, just like they are with their car. Where are things different?
Due diligence in all things.
I think there is a sweet spot in regards to this. Yes they should know some things like basic maintenance etc. but I doubt all of us agree what is contained within that sweet spot knowledge-wise for our users.
Of course, and the most basic thing is not running as admin and the second most basic is reading things before you accept them. There has to be a minimum level of caring, at some point we can't help people.
Again, you are missing the point. It is not possible for a user to run without admin rights because Microsoft does not set up their system to work that way.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
People avoid it? What planet are you on? The entire conversation is that they have no idea it is needed.
But they are offered it everywhere that they turn, just like they are with their car. Where are things different?
Due diligence in all things.
I think there is a sweet spot in regards to this. Yes they should know some things like basic maintenance etc. but I doubt all of us agree what is contained within that sweet spot knowledge-wise for our users.
Of course, and the most basic thing is not running as admin and the second most basic is reading things before you accept them. There has to be a minimum level of caring, at some point we can't help people.
Right but there is a difference in users ability to learn. I have users who don't know what to do if a shortcut is moved on a desktop. We do the best we can. It would be great if everyone were intelligent enough (or motivated enough) to read books on all of the things we use daily but I don't think it's realistic as an expectation. Should they do it? Yeah of course. I don't expect them to though.
