Non-IT News Thread
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Founder of IKEA has passed away at 91.
Yeah, but wasn't he a Nazi... really helped them out.
He was a fascist as a kid, but I'm not sure he "helped them out". The war was over by the time that he was 19, he and his Jewish business partner who was in Sweden with him as a refugee who has escaped the Nazis in Germany, were pretty busy building Ikea. That he was a member of a political party that was very popular all across Europe (and the US, Henry Ford was a member too) is cause for investigation, but I'm not aware that he in any way helped the German Nazis. Of course he might have, but if there was reason to believe that I think it would be more public. It's simply that he was a fascist sympathizer in an era when fascism was the flavour of the day, while being a teenage. He was also Swedish, a country that refused to stand up to the Nazis, but were willing to help save the Jews whenever possible. Fascist and National Socialists parties outside of Germany may have political ties to the Nazis, but the holocaust was unique to Germany (and German conquered territories, of course) and not something that spread abroad (there were other holocausts but they were not driven by Nazism). So even the concept of being a fascist or a national socialist in non-German Europe is a very different thing from being one in Germany. And even being one in Germany prior to rounding up the Jews was a very different thing than after.
My wife sent me this article, which explains some things.
So, active Nazi.
You'll need to translate it: https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article13515359.ab
Opening it in Chrome helps with that.
Yes, but not the German Nazi party, the Swedish one. It's a political party, one that was very popular.
Compare is like this. Imagine if the Republicans, a party in Spain, suddenly went nuts and did something horrible like starting a global war and slaughtering some race of people. Would you then blame all members of the Republican party in the US for those actions?
Of course not. Because while the two may or may not share ideologies, they aren't the same party and they don't take the same actions.
Is it good that he was a Swedish Nazi? No, absolutely not. Fascism wasn't a good thing. But, you have to keep it in context, being part of a Swedish political party that shared a name and high level political leanings with a German one doesn't make the two actually connected.
And remember, there ARE fascist and national political parties still today. Only today they are afraid of putting "nationalist" in their names because people are aware of what Nazi was short for. But any politician pushing for "nationalism" or any party supporting him, has that tie to the Nazis in that they are both "nationalists". So have you heard anyone say "America first" or something like that? If so, that's the same type of connection to the German Nazis as the Swedish Nazis had - similar in that they all promote nationalism in a scary authoritative way, but also each very independent and unique.
Looks to be the English translation of the same Swedish article.
Yes but they give more info.
I couldn't find anymore. I read both articles. Both have nothing bad to say about him beyond that he was active in a political party that people see much differently today than they did at the time and associate all kinds of things with it that were not necessarily factors at the time.
Let's back up. Beyond being a Swedish Nationalist in the 1940s being cause for looking more closely at his activities, what do you feel is negative about being a part of a nationalist party then; and do you feel the same for American nationalists today, for example?
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@jaredbusch said in Non-IT News Thread:
The word Nazi makes people turn off their brains.
That's why I'm starting to use nationalist, the word that it stands for. Since nationalism is in control of many countries today, and is the current movement in America right now, we can't apply it to Sweden then if we don't apply it to ourselves today.
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@jaredbusch said in Non-IT News Thread:
The word Nazi makes people turn off their brains.
And is usually applied to any dissenting view.
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@popester said in Non-IT News Thread:
@jaredbusch said in Non-IT News Thread:
The word Nazi makes people turn off their brains.
And is usually applied to any dissenting view.
Some American professor (and this speaks loads about the US education system) decided while in Germany last week that she didn't like their rules about liquids that could be carried onto flights and started calling their TSA-equivalent Nazis for not allowing her to take deoderant on the plane, and then started calling young German men in line Nazis for having that "German look" about them (in their home country.)
She, of course, is in jail now.
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You do know that it's no secret the Swedish Democratic party is heavily racist, right?
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
You do know that it's no secret the Swedish Democratic party is heavily racist, right?
That's fine. But does that mean all party members are? Are all Americans racist just because our main political parties are? Or are we just stuck with very few choices and have to make the best of it?
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
You do know that it's no secret the Swedish Democratic party is heavily racist, right?
What? Like the base the Republican party courted this last cycle?
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
Swedish Democratic party
Isn't the Sweden Democrat party a nationalist party. Not quite as extreme as the American Republican party but on the same side of the spectrum? Nationalism and racism often, historically at least, go hand in hand.
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@coliver said in Non-IT News Thread:
@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
Swedish Democratic party
Isn't the Sweden Democrat party a nationalist party. Not quite as extreme as the American Republican party but on the same side of the spectrum? Nationalism and racism often, historically at least, go hand in hand.
Yes, it is. It's got all of the terms for "Nazi" in its name.
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He's not the princess you think he was.
He was heavily active in Nazi extremest groups, part of the fascist movement (which he thought was horrible enough to have to apologize numerous times for), part of Hitler Youth, referred to his own past as "sin", urged Sweden to join the Axis Powers and fight in the war... he was part of the fascist movement with bad intentions, no matter how innocent you think it was.
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I don't feel that he and his actions are worth defending.
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
He's not the princess you think he was.
He was heavily active in Nazi extremest groups, part of the fascist movement (which he thought was horrible enough to have to apologize numerous times for), part of Hitler Youth, referred to his own past as "sin", urged Sweden to join the Axis Powers and fight in the war... he was part of the fascist movement with bad intentions, no matter how innocent you think it was.
Who said innocent? We are asking "Why is being a fascist bad?"
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
I don't feel that he and his actions are worth defending.
But what were his actions? He was an active member of a popular political party. It's not great, and no one defended them. But you seem to be reacting to some news we've not heard about him.
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
He was heavily active in Nazi extremest groups, part of the fascist movement (which he thought was horrible enough to have to apologize numerous times for), part of Hitler Youth, referred to his own past as "sin", urged Sweden to join the Axis Powers and fight in the war... he was part of the fascist movement with bad intentions...
Why was joining the Axis powers bad? Remember that the Axis powers were defending themselves against decades of illegal aggression that violated the terms of the WW1 armistice. The idea of the Axis powers was actually a pretty good one.
Fascism was, and is still, a popular political belief and is not tied to Nazism. The Nazis were names of specific fascist parties. Today, fascism remains one of the most popular political beliefs with the US being one of the countries that embraces it more than most, while eschewing the name (but only the name.)
Extremest sounds bad, but what does it mean here?
I missed the part about the Hitler Youth but, let's be honest, being a member of a brainwashing organization for children kind of defends someone's actions rather than makes them culpable for them. There was a strong system of getting children involved before they understood what was happening - if they ever knew what was happening.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Why was joining the Axis powers bad?
It's not that part alone.
It's because of everything else, PLUS wanting to join the Axis powers to file along with the Nazis. It smells of ill-intent.
I don't believe he innocently wanted to join the Axis powers to fight in the war with good, non-Nazi intentions.
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
I don't believe he innocently wanted to join the Axis powers to fight in the war with good, non-Nazi intentions.
Why don't you believe that? Have you read something that specifically gives you this belief?
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@dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
I don't believe he innocently wanted to join the Axis powers to fight in the war with good, non-Nazi intentions.
Why don't you believe that? Have you read something that specifically gives you this belief?
Well, there seems to be a lot of evidence of ill-intentions... love of Nazis, Fascists, and Hitler. None of it being anecdotal.
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Gee thanks guys, I got pulled off sides, 5yd penalty.
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@tim_g said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Why was joining the Axis powers bad?
It's not that part alone.
It's because of everything else, PLUS wanting to join the Axis powers to file along with the Nazis. It smells of ill-intent.
I don't believe he innocently wanted to join the Axis powers to fight in the war with good, non-Nazi intentions.
I'm not saying that he did or didn't, only that what we know about his involvement seems to be....
- He was a kid
- He supported the popular movement of the time for nationalism.
- He was brainwashed by organizations for this as a youth.
- He was involved in supporting the party in normal political ways.
- He had no visible negative actions on his part and actively worked with Jews in Sweden.
- He supported the Axis powers broadly, which wasn't the clear decision then like it is today.
What we know about him in this regard is very little. That there is very little to know, suggests that his involvement was likely on the benign side. Millions of Germans supported the Nazi party and never knew the evils it was doing. Until you were top brass, your ability to know what was happening was very, very hidden.
