Non-IT News Thread
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One of the biggest issues with any discussion like this is that "freedom" isn't a real thing, or at least not a solid thing. Americans have "freedom" drilled into them their entire lives and the word is thrown about without much thought, as if all freedom is good and that more is always better. That's purely an Americanism and most of the world does not agree.
For example... the Massachusetts Bay Colony was established for the express purpose of curtailing the freedom of individuals to worship as they pleased. The colony had "religious freedom" in that the founders had the right to "own" everyone who lived there and they had the freedom to force any religious rules or laws that they wanted (a lot like NC now.) The "freedom" was the freedom to control and existed only for the leaders of the colony.
The lack of freedom was that the individuals had no rights, none. They could not vote, they could not choose their religion. They didn't really even have the right to leave.
Was it more or less free? As with all of these things, one person's freedom is another person's oppression. Freedom is neither good nor bad on its own.
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@DustinB3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Sorry I must be tired.
Laws only stop people who are law abiding. Anyone who wants to do something badly enough will do it no matter what (the law says).
For example the law says I can't murder a person, but could easily commit murder. Adding new laws are just creating new avenues for lawyers to prosecute people who are breaking the existing laws. (more often than not).
The original laws are there, not to stop law abiding, but to give righteousness to the law abiding in prosecuting those who break them.
Why do we need more laws? that's a great question - a criminal certainly doesn't care if he's breaking one law or 100, he's doin' what he wants. The problem is that we aren't prosecuting them fully against the laws we already have. We don't execute the laws already on the books - but no.. we can't fix that - so we'll just create new laws, which will be just as ineffective, but hey... the above mentioned people will be happy because they think we're doing something when we pass new laws, so we'll pass new laws.
A great example of this... New York has always had a law that you can't drive while distracted. But then they made a law about using cell phones while driving. Um.. why? Does the new law indicate that the state does not believe that cell phones are distracting and so are not illegal for safety reasons (since that was already covered) but is illegal only as an avenue to generate revenue? that's how I read making a seemingly redundant law. And that's why cops are allowed to use cell phones but are otherwise required to drive safely... because the state believes that cell phones are not distracting or dangerous.
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
The whole reason that the second amendment is there is to protect your freedom.
To protect your freedom by having the ability to easily take away your neighbour's freedom. I don't think that that is why that was added to the law.
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@coliver said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
The whole reason that the second amendment is there is to protect your freedom. Granted today the populous having weapons really doesn't protect it much from the tyranny of an oppressive government, because the government has so many more resources to buy bigger and better guns/weapons/tactical gear, etc - but back in the 1700's that was the point of it. It's purely about freedom.
You may want to look into the historical relevance of the 2nd amendment. It wasn't about freedom, per-say, it was a means of ensuring a militia was armed and had the ability to be called on a moments notice. Just after the Revolutionary war we had a money problem and had issues finding funds to deploy and support a national army.
It was also important for defending the frontier when we had no military there and we had wild boundaries with hostile colonial enemies (England and France) looking to expand into the territory.
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Now, does it mean that you can do bad things with it - oh hell yeah it does - but is that a good enough reason to remove your freedom stick?
Guns are not freedom sticks today. They might have helped with freedom once upon a time. Now, they are only serve to take away freedom and safety. Weapons are not the implements of a free society, they are the resort of a terrified one. If you feel that guns are needed today, it implies to me that deep down you don't feel that you have freedom.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
The whole reason that the second amendment is there is to protect your freedom.
To protect your freedom by having the ability to easily take away your neighbour's freedom. I don't think that that is why that was added to the law.
A person is not free to come into my house uninvited. The law calls that breaking & entering. Common sense tells me to judiciously defend my family as necessary, and I will do so.
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My take on freedom is not so much as the loosely defined essence of doing what you want, when you want to whomever you want.
As @scottalanmiller the actual definition of freedom is very fluid and varies from person to person... For me, it is the ability to live my life without having to answer to the government every time I say a prayer, walk around my neighborhood, talk with my neighbors, and support my family. Freedom is also defending my family from folks who wish to do us harm.
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@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
The whole reason that the second amendment is there is to protect your freedom.
To protect your freedom by having the ability to easily take away your neighbour's freedom. I don't think that that is why that was added to the law.
A person is not free to come into my house uninvited. The law calls that breaking & entering. Common sense tells me to judiciously defend my family as necessary, and I will do so.
But common sense also would tell you that statistically the gun is more dangerous to your family than the person breaking and entering. So judiciously you'd avoid the gun and take your chances with the person who might break and enter.
What I consistently find surprising is how many Americans are convinced that they must defend their homes. Why does everyone feel that someone breaking into their homes is such a likely risk that they would take on the cost, responsibility and statistical danger of having guns in the home? It's like in IT implementing HA without verifying the need - most companies that implement HA do so in the wrong way taking on more risk than if they had just skipped it. The risk that they are protecting against is small and unlikely while the risk that they take on to mitigate it is large and certain.
The fear of needing to defend the home so certainly I would equate to not being free.
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@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
Freedom is also defending my family from folks who wish to do us harm.
And I would say that freedom would be better if you didn't have to do so. I'd prefer they to be safe from harm, than have harm attempted and try to mitigate it.
Harm avoidance rather than harm recovery.
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Did that make sense? To me, I'm more free than anyone that feels the need for a gun. Because I don't need one to keep my family even safer... and without needing to give up my other freedoms.
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@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
For me, it is the ability to live my life without having to answer to the government every time I say a prayer, walk around my neighborhood, talk with my neighbors, and support my family. Freedom is also defending my family from folks who wish to do us harm.
You can't do these things now? I would say if these are your metrics you are very much a free person.
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Free is, of course, mostly a mental state. In the same society one person will feel free while another will feel oppressed. For example, some people feel that being able to have a gun makes them more free, while others feel that being able to live without fear of people have guns makes them more free. Freedom can be opposing depending on what you feel makes you free.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
The whole reason that the second amendment is there is to protect your freedom.
To protect your freedom by having the ability to easily take away your neighbour's freedom. I don't think that that is why that was added to the law.
A person is not free to come into my house uninvited. The law calls that breaking & entering. Common sense tells me to judiciously defend my family as necessary, and I will do so.
But common sense also would tell you that statistically the gun is more dangerous to your family than the person breaking and entering. So judiciously you'd avoid the gun and take your chances with the person who might break and enter.
What I consistently find surprising is how many Americans are convinced that they must defend their homes. Why does everyone feel that someone breaking into their homes is such a likely risk that they would take on the cost, responsibility and statistical danger of having guns in the home? It's like in IT implementing HA without verifying the need - most companies that implement HA do so in the wrong way taking on more risk than if they had just skipped it. The risk that they are protecting against is small and unlikely while the risk that they take on to mitigate it is large and certain.
The fear of needing to defend the home so certainly I would equate to not being free.
In this case,I made no mention of a gun (although I realize in the previous paragraphs the Second Ammendment was mentioned). I don't need a gun. I have other methods of defending my family. It's not about defending things, it's about defending the people that live or are visiting the house.
I can fill a page of this thread with thefts and break-ins in my neighborhood from the past three weeks. I could care less about things, but if you break into my house while my family is home, then expect a most judicious defense.
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It's the same as the original colonists.... today we often define religious freedom as the right to choose your own religion. But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
For a long time, America swung towards individual freedom to choose being the definition of religious freedom. But today it is swinging back and people are fighting for the freedom to tightly define the religious rights of others. It's not a new thing, it's America returning to its roots.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Did that make sense? To me, I'm more free than anyone that feels the need for a gun. Because I don't need one to keep my family even safer... and without needing to give up my other freedoms.
Yea, I totally get it, and agree.
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@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
The whole reason that the second amendment is there is to protect your freedom.
To protect your freedom by having the ability to easily take away your neighbour's freedom. I don't think that that is why that was added to the law.
A person is not free to come into my house uninvited. The law calls that breaking & entering. Common sense tells me to judiciously defend my family as necessary, and I will do so.
But common sense also would tell you that statistically the gun is more dangerous to your family than the person breaking and entering. So judiciously you'd avoid the gun and take your chances with the person who might break and enter.
What I consistently find surprising is how many Americans are convinced that they must defend their homes. Why does everyone feel that someone breaking into their homes is such a likely risk that they would take on the cost, responsibility and statistical danger of having guns in the home? It's like in IT implementing HA without verifying the need - most companies that implement HA do so in the wrong way taking on more risk than if they had just skipped it. The risk that they are protecting against is small and unlikely while the risk that they take on to mitigate it is large and certain.
The fear of needing to defend the home so certainly I would equate to not being free.
In this case,I made no mention of a gun (although I realize in the previous paragraphs the Second Ammendment was mentioned). I don't need a gun. I have other methods of defending my family. It's not about defending things, it's about defending the people that live or are visiting the house.
I can fill a page of this thread with thefts and break-ins in my neighborhood from the past three weeks. I could care less about things, but if you break into my house while my family is home, then expect a most judicious defense.
I use my "freedom to relocate" as a part of that for me. I move my family to places where I don't feel the need to lock the doors (I still do, but I would sleep fine knowing they were wide open... except that there are bears.) If you define the freedom of protection as the freedom to be safe, I totally agree. I think that the freedom for guns and/or the need for them implies that the freedom to be safe is lacking.
Sadly, the place with the best right to own a gun (Texas) also doesn't have the freedom to defend your family (they are about to execute someone for doing just that in his own home when assailants broke in and threatened his family's safety.) In Texas you can get the chair (they don't really use a chair) for defending your children inside your own home.
So at least there, the right to OWN a gun and the right to use it don't match.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's the same as the original colonists.... today we often define religious freedom as the right to choose your own religion. But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
For a long time, America swung towards individual freedom to choose being the definition of religious freedom. But today it is swinging back and people are fighting for the freedom to tightly define the religious rights of others. It's not a new thing, it's America returning to its roots.
This is too true. Freedom in all its forms swings on a giant pendulum back and forth, in and out of the ages.
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@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's the same as the original colonists.... today we often define religious freedom as the right to choose your own religion. But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
For a long time, America swung towards individual freedom to choose being the definition of religious freedom. But today it is swinging back and people are fighting for the freedom to tightly define the religious rights of others. It's not a new thing, it's America returning to its roots.
This is too true. Freedom in all its forms swings on a giant pendulum back and forth, in and out of the ages.
Which is why I don't agree with freedom conceptually. Not that I don't want to be "free" and others to be "free", but the idea is, I think, a silly concept. For example, the freedom to elect your own government includes the ability to remove freedoms. You could, strangely, lobby for a law that would have yourself put in jail just... because. Get enough support and that law could be passed. Why? Who knows. But you could make a law, by using your freedom to guide the government, to take away ALL of your other freedoms. Freedom is a potentially self defeating concept.
Freedom of speech brings the freedom to lie. Do you have the right to scream fire in a crowded theatre? In an empty one? In the forest? Once you start to curtail the freedom, when does it switch from being more free to less free?
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@travisdh1 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@travisdh1 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@DustinB3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Yeah most laws today aren't doing much of anything useful. (read most of them) Some protect wildlife habitats, or other good things.
Don't make me tell you about the owls and the stupidity of "protecting" them by banning clear-cutting.
Can you share some more there?
Fine, have it your way.
So someone claimed that the barn owl population was plummeting due to clear cutting back in the 90s. "Where are the owls going to live?" they asked, all the freaking time. "You're taking away their home!" they cried. As it turned out, the barn owl population was actually exploding. For some reason, large birds need large, open areas to hunt in. Whoda thunk it huh? Kinda reminds me of the Polar Bear situation today.
So Barn Owls are a bad thing?
Where is my Barn Owl hat then?
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
One of the biggest issues with any discussion like this is that "freedom" isn't a real thing, or at least not a solid thing. Americans have "freedom" drilled into them their entire lives and the word is thrown about without much thought, as if all freedom is good and that more is always better. That's purely an Americanism and most of the world does not agree.
Interesting documentary, and I mean documentary, not conspiracy film, about the concept of freedom, choice, and how reality is different, and how the American idea of making people free, doesn't work:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(TV_series)
It's on YouTube, etc. I also recommend Power of Nightmares, it's almost a prequal to this, but that's about Neoconservative policies and Islamic terrorism.
