Non-IT News Thread
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
There's also a lot of articles and some studies on how bad this is for children, keeping them home and out of school, etc.
https://globalnews.ca/news/7156857/coronavirus-physical-emotional-impact-children/I think this article is reasonable, but we have to take it in context. Here is what it says: "“(It’s) a result of a loss of routine. They’re no longer in class, they’re no longer seeing their friends, their teachers, and it’s really having a negative impact on them.”"
Great. They don't see their friends, their routines have been messed up, etc. Kids need friends, routines, etc. That doesn't mean that going back to school is smart. It does suggest that seeing friends matters and total lock down might be bad for kids. However, loads of kids see their friends more now because they aren't in school where you are not allowed to socialize. I know my kids get tons more "other kid" time now, because of COVID sending the kids at school home.
Now if parents take away the ability to use social media or whatever, we have an issue of parents causing these problems. Now we are saying that schools should reopen to take parenting out of the hands of parents because children should be overseen by the state, not the family (and I'm not arguing that they shouldn't, just saying what that means.) But it's not school being closed that's the problem, it's the home life.
Same with the routine. It's been long enough that kids have a new routine. Returning to school would actually be breaking the routine now, especially for younger kids. This is the "new normal." So while taking school away was bad, we've absorbed that bad, now sending them back can do the same thing again.
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller You say this as if all U.S. families/parents/guardians of children are equally able to home school, that the parents don't need to go to work and have all the time and ability to home school their children. Not all families have a SAHM or Dad, or jobs that allow for WFH, or etc...
There's a ton of variables.
There are, but it's more complex than that. One, it's not the government's job to take over parenting and especially not forcibly. And just because people don't, don't mean can't. A huge number of people simply are unwilling to do so, rather than not being able to.
In many countries, it's just the parents' responsibilities and "can" or not is not considered. Maybe it should be, maybe it shouldn't. But Americans tend to treat "the government raising their kids" as an entitlement rather than an option benefit.
Everything you just said literally had nothing at all to do with my point.
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@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller You say this as if all U.S. families/parents/guardians of children are equally able to home school, that the parents don't need to go to work and have all the time and ability to home school their children. Not all families have a SAHM or Dad, or jobs that allow for WFH, or etc...
There's a ton of variables.
There are, but it's more complex than that. One, it's not the government's job to take over parenting and especially not forcibly. And just because people don't, don't mean can't. A huge number of people simply are unwilling to do so, rather than not being able to.
In many countries, it's just the parents' responsibilities and "can" or not is not considered. Maybe it should be, maybe it shouldn't. But Americans tend to treat "the government raising their kids" as an entitlement rather than an option benefit.
Everything you just said literally had nothing at all to do with my point.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I think Scott is talking to your point - he's seemingly disagreeing with you saying that many can work from home and choose not to.
Now he says that, and I suppose from a pure ability - sure they can. But they can also starve to death because they have no money from not working, because many companies, especially small ones, aren't paying people to stay home. Sure Uncle Sam is paying people unemployment, but only if furloughed/laid off/fired - if you quit, which is what many of these people would have to do - i.e. I can't work because I have to take care of my kids as they are now at home and I have no baby sitter/money to pay daycare - that's tantamount to walking off the job... now the employer can likely treat this either way - as quitting, or fire them for no show. It's in the company's interest to treat it as quit, because that puts a huge delay in paying unemployment benefits.
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller You say this as if all U.S. families/parents/guardians of children are equally able to home school, that the parents don't need to go to work and have all the time and ability to home school their children. Not all families have a SAHM or Dad, or jobs that allow for WFH, or etc...
There's a ton of variables.
There are, but it's more complex than that. One, it's not the government's job to take over parenting and especially not forcibly. And just because people don't, don't mean can't. A huge number of people simply are unwilling to do so, rather than not being able to.
In many countries, it's just the parents' responsibilities and "can" or not is not considered. Maybe it should be, maybe it shouldn't. But Americans tend to treat "the government raising their kids" as an entitlement rather than an option benefit.
Everything you just said literally had nothing at all to do with my point.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I think Scott is talking to your point - he's seemingly disagreeing with you saying that many can work from home and choose not to.
Now he says that, and I suppose from a pure ability - sure they can. But they can also starve to death because they have no money from not working, because many companies, especially small ones, aren't paying people to stay home. Sure Uncle Sam is paying people unemployment, but only if furloughed/laid off/fired - if you quit, which is what many of these people would have to do - i.e. I can't work because I have to take care of my kids as they are now at home and I have no baby sitter/money to pay daycare - that's tantamount to walking off the job... now the employer can likely treat this either way - as quitting, or fire them for no show. It's in the company's interest to treat it as quit, because that puts a huge delay in paying unemployment benefits.
No, most jobs are not jobs that allow remote work. You simply cannot shut down all jobs, as many of them require physical work. You just can't, it's not sustainable. You'll run out of food, as one example. Important services like police, fire fighters, road workers, people behind closed networks running nuclear power plants, etc.... it's a fucking HUGE list of people who simply cannot do their job from home. In addition to that, not every place allows all workers to work from home.
And then in a single mom/dad scenario, not every job will allow you to be with the kids all day while you are supposed to be working and getting things done. Kids can't be expected to sit quietly all day and help themselves. There's 0-8 year olds for example, that's just too young to basically let be home alone (and no I don't care about people's perfect kids who are <10 and act like they are 30... that's not the majority). Not everyone can quit their job for 2 years to take care of their kids.
Mom & Dad homes or dual guardian homes, then it has the potential to be easier, but not necessarily. There are FAR TOO MANY variables at play, and the "Scott's World" ideology of "everyone should be able to be home and school their kids perfectly" just isn't what happens in practice. What "should be" isn't at all and is rarely what "is".
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller You say this as if all U.S. families/parents/guardians of children are equally able to home school, that the parents don't need to go to work and have all the time and ability to home school their children. Not all families have a SAHM or Dad, or jobs that allow for WFH, or etc...
There's a ton of variables.
There are, but it's more complex than that. One, it's not the government's job to take over parenting and especially not forcibly. And just because people don't, don't mean can't. A huge number of people simply are unwilling to do so, rather than not being able to.
In many countries, it's just the parents' responsibilities and "can" or not is not considered. Maybe it should be, maybe it shouldn't. But Americans tend to treat "the government raising their kids" as an entitlement rather than an option benefit.
Everything you just said literally had nothing at all to do with my point.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I think Scott is talking to your point - he's seemingly disagreeing with you saying that many can work from home and choose not to.
Now he says that, and I suppose from a pure ability - sure they can. But they can also starve to death because they have no money from not working, because many companies, especially small ones, aren't paying people to stay home. Sure Uncle Sam is paying people unemployment, but only if furloughed/laid off/fired - if you quit, which is what many of these people would have to do - i.e. I can't work because I have to take care of my kids as they are now at home and I have no baby sitter/money to pay daycare - that's tantamount to walking off the job... now the employer can likely treat this either way - as quitting, or fire them for no show. It's in the company's interest to treat it as quit, because that puts a huge delay in paying unemployment benefits.
My case, I fully work from home and do my job well this way. My wife is a stay at home mom, so yes in my case it works out perfectly. She could easily even homeschool our children no problem. But my son isn't in school yet, and my daughter goes to school as normal (except now for summer vacation I mean). But here, home schooling isn't allowed except in extraordinarily rare cases. But in the U.S., it'd not be an issue.
Excluding my case, and Scott's case, I know that not everyone has the same situation as us and can't necessarily stay at home, work from home, and home school.... and I know that not all parents are qualified enough teachers and may not necessarily be able to home school well. Regardless of the parent's situation, maybe they aren't mentally able to do it, whatever, just because they should have made better choices in life, doesn't mean the kids should have to suffer.
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@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
Mom & Dad homes or dual guardian homes, then it has the potential to be easier, but not necessarily. There are FAR TOO MANY variables at play, and the "Scott's World" ideology of "everyone should be able to be home and school their kids perfectly" just isn't what happens in practice. What "should be" isn't at all and is rarely what "is".
So what I said was many, not all. And the whole school concept disregards all those people who can't work the same schedule as school. Work overnights? Screwed... now you work AND have to deal with your kids at school.
School isn't some silver bullet. The government taking over the care and education of kids isn't a silver bullet. Governments are often exerting this control, people have given in to it because it feels nice to not have as much responsibility or they feel trapped, and society has conformed because it had to. Skip school in this manner, and society will adapt to that new normal. Make school be centralized but online, we'll adapt. Make school be at night, we'll adapt. Different people get benefits or screwed in different scenarios. You are using "people have already adapted" as if school changing wouldn't need to result in jobs changing. But it changed in the twentieth century, and the system is garbage, so why not make people adjust again, but to something actually good?
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Color me not surprised...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/15/politics/kevin-stitt-oklahoma-governor-coronavirus/index.html
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
Mom & Dad homes or dual guardian homes, then it has the potential to be easier, but not necessarily. There are FAR TOO MANY variables at play, and the "Scott's World" ideology of "everyone should be able to be home and school their kids perfectly" just isn't what happens in practice. What "should be" isn't at all and is rarely what "is".
So what I said was many, not all. And the whole school concept disregards all those people who can't work the same schedule as school. Work overnights? Screwed... now you work AND have to deal with your kids at school.
School isn't some silver bullet. The government taking over the care and education of kids isn't a silver bullet. Governments are often exerting this control, people have given in to it because it feels nice to not have as much responsibility or they feel trapped, and society has conformed because it had to. Skip school in this manner, and society will adapt to that new normal. Make school be centralized but online, we'll adapt. Make school be at night, we'll adapt. Different people get benefits or screwed in different scenarios. You are using "people have already adapted" as if school changing wouldn't need to result in jobs changing. But it changed in the twentieth century, and the system is garbage, so why not make people adjust again, but to something actually good?
solid point - at least I currently think so - how long has the modern school setup been in place? i.e. k-12 go to school m-f 7'ish to 3:30ish?
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@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
solid point - at least I currently think so - how long has the modern school setup been in place? i.e. k-12 go to school m-f 7'ish to 3:30ish?
I think since around the 1930s. It's more recent than you'd think. And it's not universal and still changing. The ages, times, length, purpose, keeps evolving. School today is nothing like when I was a kid, for example.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
solid point - at least I currently think so - how long has the modern school setup been in place? i.e. k-12 go to school m-f 7'ish to 3:30ish?
I think since around the 1930s. It's more recent than you'd think. And it's not universal and still changing. The ages, times, length, purpose, keeps evolving. School today is nothing like when I was a kid, for example.
not really more recent that I would think. I figured it was likely between WWI and WWII, we definitely see the normalcy of it by the 40's, though I can't say I know of any references to the earlier than that. though unrelated, single room schools existed long after this timeframe.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
School today is nothing like when I was a kid, for example.
oh, how is it different for you?
HS for me is pretty much the same. Late'ish Aug - Late'ish May bus pickup between 6 and 7:30, drop off sometime between 3:30 and 5:30.
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Here's what the Granite School District in Utah is doing.
https://www.graniteschools.org/bulletin/steps-for-a-safe-school-year/Steps for a Safe School Year
https://cdn-59bd6cf5f911c923e82ee0ee.closte.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Steps-for-Safe-School.pdf
School Reopening Requirements Template
https://cdn-59bd6cf5f911c923e82ee0ee.closte.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/School-Reopening-Requirements-Template-.pdf -
@black3dynamite sick students must stay home.... how do they determine who is sick? Testing is not free, at least not here. Who is determining if they are sick?
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@black3dynamite sick students must stay home.... how do they determine who is sick? Testing is not free, at least not here. Who is determining if they are sick?
According to the School Reopening Requirements Template document, it depends on the school and parents.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@black3dynamite sick students must stay home.... how do they determine who is sick? Testing is not free, at least not here. Who is determining if they are sick?
The thing is, of your kids are sick, it's most likely not Covid19.
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@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@black3dynamite sick students must stay home.... how do they determine who is sick? Testing is not free, at least not here. Who is determining if they are sick?
The thing is, of your kids are sick, it's most likely not Covid19.
I personally don't care if it's Covid-19, Flu or the common cold, if you're sick, keep it to yourself/family. The rampant spread of illness is absolutely insane and Covid-19 simply put a spotlight on the issue.
Wash your hands ffs.
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@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@black3dynamite sick students must stay home.... how do they determine who is sick? Testing is not free, at least not here. Who is determining if they are sick?
The thing is, of your kids are sick, it's most likely not Covid19.
Sure, but probably good that sick kids aren't put into schools anyway. Schools, ignoring COVID19, have always been petri dishes and spread disease in communities like crazy (one of the many reasons I think that they are terrible ideas and always have) and since schools are paid based on attendance, they have long had policies to require kids stay in school when sick. Making all the other kids sick. If we made all the kids stay home when sick, regardless of what it is, it could have a huge positive impact on the school system in general.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Sure, but probably good that sick kids aren't put into schools anyway.
Yeah for sure. But this is all in regards to COVID-19, and since.
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@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Sure, but probably good that sick kids aren't put into schools anyway.
Yeah for sure. But this is all in regards to COVID-19, and since.
In theory, but healthy kids (and teachers) are less likely to get COVID as well. It's a win/win.
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@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@black3dynamite sick students must stay home.... how do they determine who is sick? Testing is not free, at least not here. Who is determining if they are sick?
The thing is, of your kids are sick, it's most likely not Covid19.
And even if it is Covid-19, most kids won't even notice they have it. They could have a small cough or 1 day of low grade fever. Or no symptoms at all.
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@Fredtx said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Obsolesce said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@black3dynamite sick students must stay home.... how do they determine who is sick? Testing is not free, at least not here. Who is determining if they are sick?
The thing is, of your kids are sick, it's most likely not Covid19.
And even if it is Covid-19, most kids won't even notice they have it. They could have a small cough or 1 day of low grade fever. Or no symptoms at all.
https://kfor.com/news/oklahoma-records-first-child-death-from-covid-19/
Death is a non-symptom, for sure.
