Who do you call for IT assistance
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
LOL - I considered mentioning that you - Scott - would say something exactly like this. I recall you for years saying - if IT has to reach out to vendor to get a solution - they potentially have already failed - or at least that's the way it felt at the time.
I don't agree with the failure point here because it should not be expected that a person supporting a product is better at support than the vendor who makes the product... Sure, there are times when we've all seen this happen - the vendor can't solve a problem and IT finds a way, but I feel that most of these situations are ones that involve things that aren't directly related to the product.Agree with this you can't expect any IT Department or Team to know 100% of everything. So when someting goes wrong they will need help.
As above for me, if there's an issue with Dell you call Dell support if you can't fix
we've done it a few times when a switch wouldn't recover after a fail over. Also a SAN that stopped replicating. Yes I bet I could of fixed these myself after digging around, but as we paid for support why not use it. -
@pmoncho said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@obsolesce said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
I'm not looking for a direct answer to the topic title.
I just had my first review with my new boss.
She asked me a question that seemed odd, but after more information was less odd due to her position.
Question: is there a certifying authority you can get certified in that you can also reach out to to get help with problems you can't solve?
Her example was SUNA - Society of Urologic Nurses and Associates. They certify nurses and have personal you can contact to get help with your questions.
IT is very broad. But to answer your question, if there is an IT issue you can't solve, you go to the product or technology's support method. If a MS issue MS support, Dell issue, then Dell support, etc...
Here's a possible mind bender - at least it is to me at o'dark thirty and 1/4 cup of coffee....
Is an issue with an MS product or a Dell server, etc an IT issue? On the surface it definitely looks right to say it is, but when we look at how this community has brought to light all of the computer based things that aren't IT - i.e. DB Admin Not IT, etc - what specifically makes an issue an IT issue vs not one?
I'll sit back and see how much vitriol I get over this
I guess it all depends on whose definition of IT (Information Technology) we want to use.
If we use Oxford's Dictionary definition then IT = the study or use of systems (especially computers and telecommunications) for storing, retrieving, and sending information. Your example is covered under IT.
Change the "dictionary", get a different definition and then a different result.
There is IT the business/field term, and then there is IT the English term. In English, it's the USE of and the systems themselves. So the END users are IT. Anyone using a spreadsheet, for example, is "doing IT". In the modern world, essentially all humans are IT by that definition, even those not in a business.
Then there is the business term where IT is used for business infrastructure and that's the only situation where there is a career or field associated with it.
It's a but like using "publisher" where in one case, it refers to any kid with a crayon and paper, and in another it's a company that specialized in binding and printing.
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@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
Agree with this you can't expect any IT Department or Team to know 100% of everything. So when someting goes wrong they will need help.
There's two flaws in thinking here...
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That anyone needs 100% to do their job. They need a complete scope, but no one and no vendor, in any field, knows 100%. Calling on vendors doesn't fix this problem, so if it is a requirement, you are already lost.
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That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@obsolesce said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
I'm not looking for a direct answer to the topic title.
I just had my first review with my new boss.
She asked me a question that seemed odd, but after more information was less odd due to her position.
Question: is there a certifying authority you can get certified in that you can also reach out to to get help with problems you can't solve?
Her example was SUNA - Society of Urologic Nurses and Associates. They certify nurses and have personal you can contact to get help with your questions.
IT is very broad. But to answer your question, if there is an IT issue you can't solve, you go to the product or technology's support method. If a MS issue MS support, Dell issue, then Dell support, etc...
Here's a possible mind bender - at least it is to me at o'dark thirty and 1/4 cup of coffee....
Is an issue with an MS product or a Dell server, etc an IT issue? On the surface it definitely looks right to say it is, but when we look at how this community has brought to light all of the computer based things that aren't IT - i.e. DB Admin Not IT, etc - what specifically makes an issue an IT issue vs not one?
I'll sit back and see how much vitriol I get over thisGenerally no. Dealing with it is an IT issue. But a manufacturing flaw or a coding error are mistakes in engineering, manufacturing or coding... not in IT. Think of IT like a driver and the server like a car. If the car has a defect, that's not the driver's issue. The driver might have to know to stop using the car, to steer, brake, or go slow to avoid a crash because of the flaw, or just know to call the vendor to have it fixed.
Going to a vendor for a non-IT issue is obvious and goes without saying. Calling a vendor to have their do our IT work for us is equally obviously bad and totally crazy. Dell and MS aren't IT vendors, they don't know IT, they have no knowledge of our organizations necessary to do IT for them, and if they get paid to do IT both of them just farm out to third party IT firms at huge markup and it's no different than if you called an IT firm yourself except you don't get to vet them and they cost double.
As someone who has run the firms that both of those specific vendors farm out to, I'm very used to the system.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@pete-s said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
It can't, IT isn't a certifiable process.
ITIL certification?
IT certifies processes, but not IT. There are tons of certs for "tasks done by IT", but that's very different from certifying IT itself.
I am thinking that something more akin to a critical thinking certificate would be an IT itself cert more than anything else.
One thing I continue to learn is I don't think critically enough. it's not truly something that's tough in school.
You can't teach critical thinking, IMHO. You can only encourage or discourage it. And nothing is more discouraged in the traditional K-PhD path in the US. Every step of the process, even the steps of deciding to go on for more education, are built around "do as you are told" instead of "consider the consequences and decide."
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@jt1001001 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender Ive answered similar question from a previous manager (wo had no I-T background) by stating the vendor of the software/hardware we are having an issue with is the ultimate "authority", and proceeded to explain hardware and software support contracts and the importance of said contracts. In addition I listed other paid resources available (Experts Exchange subscription at the time).
Great point - I'll mention that in the future.
As a point of common misunderstanding because nothing is farther from being correct. It's the exact opposite. The role of internal IT (or hired IT) is to ensure you have support even fi the vendor fails.
Just went through this exact conversation for a bank. "Vendor support" as the highest level is a bizarre thing that I'd never even encountered until working in the Spiceworks community. In every company I've ever been in from tiny to Fortune 10, including at many of the big vendors that people are relying on, it is their IT departments themselves that are the ultimate support, not even their own vendor teams.
LOL - I considered mentioning that you - Scott - would say something exactly like this. I recall you for years saying - if IT has to reach out to vendor to get a solution - they potentially have already failed - or at least that's the way it felt at the time.
I don't agree with the failure point here because it should not be expected that a person supporting a product is better at support than the vendor who makes the product... Sure, there are times when we've all seen this happen - the vendor can't solve a problem and IT finds a way, but I feel that most of these situations are ones that involve things that aren't directly related to the product.If IT reaches out to get IT from a vendor, IT has failed. You can't word is as "IT reaching out" because IT has to talk to vendors all the time... for licensing, code fixes, quotes, logistics, parts replacement, etc. It's when IT reaches out to have a vendor that isn't part of the IT infrastructure do that department's job for it. Vendors are on the adversarial side of the fence, they are never part of your internal team. An IT vendor is a wholly different animal and using one is "adding to the IT team" rather than "handing the ball to the other side."
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@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
- That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
What? No doctor or lawyer has a complete scope - it's not practical or possible. That's why there are specialists in those fields.
Now if you're saying " we have inhouse IT, therefore we should have complete scope for everything we do in-house.... then maybe this is/could be true if, IF the huge company has tons of staff, staff that are dedicated to each area of scope.
so in that regard for a SMB - the same can be had by using those external resources to cover those scopes.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
What? No doctor or lawyer has a complete scope - it's not practical or possible. That's why there are specialists in those fields.
Right, but law firms and hospitals do. Hence why IT people never should work alone, they need a group large enough to provide complete scope.... exactly as lawyers and doctors do.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
Now if you're saying " we have inhouse IT, therefore we should have complete scope for everything we do in-house.... then maybe this is/could be true if, IF the huge company has tons of staff, staff that are dedicated to each area of scope.
I've always said that from a business perspective (looking at it wearing the CEO hat) that the best practice for all businesses is to have an IT department with complete scope because if you don't, your risk is enormous because you have gaps that could include performance, security, capability, etc. and no way to know. If a company brings IT completely in house, then the onus is pretty huge. If it is external or hybrid, this is not a large challenge.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
so in that regard for a SMB - the same can be had by using those external resources to cover those scopes.
Exactly. Which is what lone lawyers and doctors do, they have referral or partner or advisory partners for things out of their specialty. What no honest doctor will ever do is say "I don't know anything about cancer, let's call Pfizer and ask them". No, any actual doctor doing their job in any way will call.... another doctor! This is what IT needs to do. Not call a sales person, but call someone or some group with the expertise in question.
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@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
What? No doctor or lawyer has a complete scope - it's not practical or possible. That's why there are specialists in those fields.
Right, but law firms and hospitals do. Hence why IT people never should work alone, they need a group large enough to provide complete scope.... exactly as lawyers and doctors do.
But they frequently don't. Sure a hospital likely covers the whole scope. But private practices don't. They refer patients to others all the time.
I assume the same happens for lawyers in small offices. -
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
so in that regard for a SMB - the same can be had by using those external resources to cover those scopes.
Exactly. Which is what lone lawyers and doctors do, they have referral or partner or advisory partners for things out of their specialty. What no honest doctor will ever do is say "I don't know anything about cancer, let's call Pfizer and ask them". No, any actual doctor doing their job in any way will call.... another doctor! This is what IT needs to do. Not call a sales person, but call someone or some group with the expertise in question.
OK I see where you're going here - you're assuming anyone selling a product is incapable providing support for that product - that seems insane!
Sure the entity making the product can't and shouldn't be expected to know the in's and out's of the purchaser's network, but I think it reasonable for the vendor to be able to assist on the product specifically, and perhaps be part of the team that solves the issue.I would agree that a doc that knows nothing about cancer isn't going to call a pharma company.. but the cancer doc who does know about cancer probably should call the pharma company when using their med won't work as expected.
Beyond this, I think the approach is often different from this point. -
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
- That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
Unfortunately we live in the real world.
No SMB will have enough people (or money) to cover everything in the IT world, from basic desktop support, server hardware/software, security, firewalls, pentesting, cloud, azure, etc etc etc.So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
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@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@scottalanmiller said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
- That EVERY IT department shouldn't be tasked with having complete scope. Of COURSE they should. Imagine if we said the same thing about doctors or lawyers!!!
Unfortunately we live in the real world.
No SMB will have enough people (or money) to cover everything in the IT world, from basic desktop support, server hardware/software, security, firewalls, pentesting, cloud, azure, etc etc etc.So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
I believe Scottās argument to that would be:
Of course not, not in house. They would hire it out through an MSP. This allows for the sharing of the MSPās resources across multiple companies while getting all the advantages.Scottās said this before.
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
I believe Scottās argument to that would be:
Of course not, not in house. They would hire it out through an MSP. This allows for the sharing of the MSPās resources across multiple companies while getting all the advantages.Scottās said this before.
But he also said what i referenced that we Should. I several times if we need to reach out we have failed in IT.
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@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
I several times if we need to reach out we have failed in IT.
Not necessarily. If you've had to reach out for the same thing several times, then it may be time to hire for that position in house?
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@dafyre said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
I several times if we need to reach out we have failed in IT.
Not necessarily. If you've had to reach out for the same thing several times, then it may be time to hire for that position in house?
Not for the same issue
for different kit over the years
Touch wood we haven't much for the new kit apart from after a power cut the switches didn't come up correctly. As someone else set them up they can sort it :D. But i have now worked out how the config works -
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
So we need to reach out for help when needed. Yes I would say I have a broed knowledge in a wide range (part thanks to this forum) but some stuff I know we would need some external help with.
I believe Scottās argument to that would be:
Of course not, not in house. They would hire it out through an MSP. This allows for the sharing of the MSPās resources across multiple companies while getting all the advantages.Scottās said this before.
But he also said what i referenced that we Should. I several times if we need to reach out we have failed in IT.
They donāt contradict each other as long as that reaching out is to your continuation of the IT teamā¦ aka the MSP.
That said I donāt agree with is āmust know everything or youāve failedā approach
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@dashrender said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
That said I donāt agree with is āmust know everything or youāve failedā approach
But why? What's the excuse for being an advisory department and not meeting due diligance capability? What value does IT add if we are uninformed and unable to provide the necessary oversight to the business? Why do we ever allow this when there is never a time when it is out of reach?
THis is like saying that the management team doesn't need to have the full capabilities necessary to run the business. Sure they might know people management, but we'll excuse them from knowing how to pay their taxes and not bringing in the resources to do so. We'd never excuse a doctor, lawyer, or CEO from this. Why would IT be different? How is IT expected to work if we allow this?
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@dafyre said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
@hobbit666 said in Who do you call for IT assistance:
I several times if we need to reach out we have failed in IT.
Not necessarily. If you've had to reach out for the same thing several times, then it may be time to hire for that position in house?
Not really. I mean it's possible, but almost never is in house IT necessary or even logical until a task approaches full time. And even then, its almost impossible to justify internal IT as external can meet or beat the cost by definition, but carries other advantages. If a role is anything less than full time, then in house has no ability to compete.
The idea of in house IT is really one of emotions, not business value. Until you are building specialty skills that no outside person or team can have, internal IT logically doesn't add up. So looking for a resource you need repeatedly will never actually tell you that it should be moved in house, it only suggests where you could move in house with less impact. But there would always be impact in the general sense.
