KVM or VMWare
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@notverypunny said in KVM or VMWare:
@dbeato said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch It is supported you can either pay for support or run OpenSource.
https://xcp-ng.com/It has been super stable compared to Xenserver/Citrix XenServer.
Not looking to take over or diverge too much, but what stability issues did you have on Citrix? We're a 95% Citrix shop and rarely have issues with the hypervisor knock wood Just wondering if we're lucky or if there's something else at play.
We have both xenserver and xcp-ng servers but don't notice any difference. It's the same code base after all.
Never had any stability issues with either. If we did would have looked for something else right away.
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@wls-itguy said in KVM or VMWare:
We're getting ready for our server refresh and along with that our license is up for renewal for VMWare. I am curious to the benefits of KVM over VMWare.
What do you use and why?
Lower cost. More options. Less risk.
Risk is easy.... VMware has licensing risk. Both risk that you do something wrong (hard risk) and risk that you waste time obtaining, verifying, updating, purchasing, etc. (soft risk.) We rank the risk of VMware licensing alone as being larger than the total risk of most KVM deployments. VMware's complex licensing risk (while not terrible) is enough to use as proof that it has to be removed from most short lists. Just did this with a bank this week.
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@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
Why isn't ProxMox on the list?
MS just killed Hyper-V so I get why it's not there.
It is. KVM vs. VMware.
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@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
MS just killed Hyper-V so I get why it's not there.
What the heck are you talking about?
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@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
@marcinozga said in KVM or VMWare:
@dashrender said in KVM or VMWare:
MS just killed Hyper-V so I get why it's not there.
Do you have a source of this claim? Because abandoning free Hyper-V server is not the same as killing Hyper-V. Server role is still there.
meh - same ultimate difference. sure the role is still there, but that's not what nearly anyone should be using.
What? That you don't like it is not related to it being discontinued. But even besides that, what's wrong with it? Why isn't it a clear improvement over VMware in 99% of cases still?
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@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:
Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)
No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.
I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.
Unless you use terraform or similar to build your servers on KVM. You would then need to leverage bash/powershell to do the builds. Then you have a very repeatable process that doesn't rely on GUI management. You can also use an open source tool like Jenkins to manage pipelines for deployment so it's easy repeatable.
I would say most SMBs who aren't trained in IaC would be better off with other options.
I would say that anyone that doesn't know how to use KVM well is just as unsafe (but doesn't know it) with VMware and should be even more wary to continue. If any business, of any size, lacks the skills to do IT well then they should address that rather than implementing something wrong poorly and just looking the other way. KVM remains the better answer for exactly that reason.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:
Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)
No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.
I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.
Unless you use terraform or similar to build your servers on KVM. You would then need to leverage bash/powershell to do the builds. Then you have a very repeatable process that doesn't rely on GUI management. You can also use an open source tool like Jenkins to manage pipelines for deployment so it's easy repeatable.
I would say most SMBs who aren't trained in IaC would be better off with other options.
I would say that anyone that doesn't know how to use KVM well is just as unsafe (but doesn't know it) with VMware and should be even more wary to continue. If any business, of any size, lacks the skills to do IT well then they should address that rather than implementing something wrong poorly and just looking the other way. KVM remains the better answer for exactly that reason.
The problem is paying for the talent. I was talking to a former coworker in a fortune 100. They are can't find people who are qualified to do DevOps. They have to keep raising pay and still not getting bites.
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@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@jaredbusch said in KVM or VMWare:
@hobbit666 said in KVM or VMWare:
Didn't get on with KVM but thats down to my skill set. (i.e. limited linux skills)
No business should run on just KVM. Until the most current iteration of Proxmox I would never recommend KVM for a business.
I have used it personally for years now. But that is different than running a business. A business needs simple easy to follow processes that are enabled by things like Proxmox, vCenter, and Hyper-V Manager.
Unless you use terraform or similar to build your servers on KVM. You would then need to leverage bash/powershell to do the builds. Then you have a very repeatable process that doesn't rely on GUI management. You can also use an open source tool like Jenkins to manage pipelines for deployment so it's easy repeatable.
I would say most SMBs who aren't trained in IaC would be better off with other options.
I would say that anyone that doesn't know how to use KVM well is just as unsafe (but doesn't know it) with VMware and should be even more wary to continue. If any business, of any size, lacks the skills to do IT well then they should address that rather than implementing something wrong poorly and just looking the other way. KVM remains the better answer for exactly that reason.
The problem is paying for the talent. I was talking to a former coworker in a fortune 100. They are can't find people who are qualified to do DevOps. They have to keep raising pay and still not getting bites.
Just because they don't have the ability to attract talent doesn't mean that it's not the better option. It's a fake problem. The talent is available, and it is affordable, they either have failed processes in searching, or their willingness to hire is poor. There's no shortage of KVM talent, so anyone telling you that they can't hire is actually telling you that they are so bad at searching that they can't function as a business or they are so bad to work for that no amount of money can fix it.
A company can sabotage its own efforts in anything. But at the end of the day, KVM skills are available and affordable. Until that resource is tapped out and there is a shortage, no claims from any business tell us that KVM is a bad choice, only that they are a bad company.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
There's no shortage of KVM talent, so anyone telling you that they can't hire is actually telling you that they are so bad at searching that they can't function as a business or they are so bad to work for that no amount of money can fix it.
This simply isn't true. No one in the enterprise space runs qemu/libvirt. They've developed their own APIs (gvisor, firecracker, etc).
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The enterprises that don't use KVM with their own APIs/emulator (or run fully cloud) run VMware for the APIs. The integration with the REST APIs is more important than any of the anscillary features of qemu/libvirt.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
The integration with the REST APIs is more important than any of the anscillary features of qemu/libvirt.
Exactly. Stuff isn't done manually anymore.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
There's no shortage of KVM talent, so anyone telling you that they can't hire is actually telling you that they are so bad at searching that they can't function as a business or they are so bad to work for that no amount of money can fix it.
This simply isn't true. No one in the enterprise space runs qemu/libvirt. They've developed their own APIs (gvisor, firecracker, etc).
It's totally true. Just because you are talking to companies doing a bad job and lying about it and you are accepting what they say as truth doesn't make it so, at all. As long as talent is on the market, and it is without any shortage, then the issue is with the companies hiring (or failing to hire), this is just basic logic. They claim they can't hire, yet people are looking for that work that know what they are doing. GIven those facts, what they claim can't be true. Basic economics.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
There's no shortage of KVM talent, so anyone telling you that they can't hire is actually telling you that they are so bad at searching that they can't function as a business or they are so bad to work for that no amount of money can fix it.
This simply isn't true. No one in the enterprise space runs qemu/libvirt. They've developed their own APIs (gvisor, firecracker, etc).
It's totally true. Just because you are talking to companies doing a bad job and lying about it and you are accepting what they say as truth doesn't make it so, at all. As long as talent is on the market, and it is without any shortage, then the issue is with the companies hiring (or failing to hire), this is just basic logic. They claim they can't hire, yet people are looking for that work that know what they are doing. GIven those facts, what they claim can't be true. Basic economics.
I'm not. You don't have a real pulse on the market it seems. These are just claims you're making without any basis. Just because you can find some people who can install Proxmox doesn't mean there is KVM expertise.
Also, Proxmox doesn't count as KVM expertise in case that's the angle you're trying to use here.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
There's no shortage of KVM talent, so anyone telling you that they can't hire is actually telling you that they are so bad at searching that they can't function as a business or they are so bad to work for that no amount of money can fix it.
This simply isn't true. No one in the enterprise space runs qemu/libvirt. They've developed their own APIs (gvisor, firecracker, etc).
It's totally true. Just because you are talking to companies doing a bad job and lying about it and you are accepting what they say as truth doesn't make it so, at all. As long as talent is on the market, and it is without any shortage, then the issue is with the companies hiring (or failing to hire), this is just basic logic. They claim they can't hire, yet people are looking for that work that know what they are doing. GIven those facts, what they claim can't be true. Basic economics.
I'm not. You don't have a real pulse on the market it seems. These are just claims you're making without any basis. Just because you can find some people who can install Proxmox doesn't mean there is KVM expertise.
Also, Proxmox doesn't count as KVM expertise in case that's the angle you're trying to use here.
I never made the claim about anything about ProxMox. I just said that KVM skills are not in short supply. There's lots on the market. Everyone makes claims that there is a shortage to justify not providing in house talent and just going to vendors. It's an easy claim to make and if a company is crap at hiring it even makes it appear to be true. But we all work in IT and know that it's not even remotely true. Tons of people are on the market, and tons of support firms are too. The bottom line is that companies avoid hiring them (or anyone) because they like just paying a vendor as an excuse. Went through this this week, luckily once we talked about this exact stuff they understood immediately and didn't just hire a vendor to sell them stuff.
It's easy to follow the sales people and get paid as a middleman and not to do IT, so everyone wants to so it. Big enterprises are full of middle managers looking to protect their jobs. SO the process just keeps repeating. But don't repeat it to IT people as if we don't know better. We all know that skills are on the market and companies aren't hiring them.
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@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
Also, Proxmox doesn't count as KVM expertise in case that's the angle you're trying to use here.
While I never implied it, it absolutely does. That's like saying that working with vSphere doesn't count as VMware experience. That's pretty absurd. In fact, as Jared was saying, you always deploy with management suites. So if anything, KVM without something like ProxMox might be less of KVM experience than ProxMox.
Is your claim that KVM experience only counts if you are building your own interfaces to it? What does that say about the 100% lack of VMware skills by the same logic?
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From working in big business, if I was to use my small cross section of things, I'd say that VMware support is truly lacking in comparison to KVM. Like Windows, anyone and everyone claims to know VMware and has a cert and has touched it, but almost none can discuss it rationally and have little, if any, actual knowledge of it. And in real world experience, that includes VMware staff.
The whole concept around VMware support is that less knowledge is needed, but that's a dangerous place to be where you just push buttons and hope you chose well because you don't know what it is doing. That's the majority of VMware "support" we've seen in the real world, including this past week from VMware where they were pushing a solution before even knowing the customer's architecture or needs - demonstrably doing sales, not IT. And demonstrating the gap in support.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
There's no shortage of KVM talent, so anyone telling you that they can't hire is actually telling you that they are so bad at searching that they can't function as a business or they are so bad to work for that no amount of money can fix it.
This simply isn't true. No one in the enterprise space runs qemu/libvirt. They've developed their own APIs (gvisor, firecracker, etc).
It's totally true. Just because you are talking to companies doing a bad job and lying about it and you are accepting what they say as truth doesn't make it so, at all. As long as talent is on the market, and it is without any shortage, then the issue is with the companies hiring (or failing to hire), this is just basic logic. They claim they can't hire, yet people are looking for that work that know what they are doing. GIven those facts, what they claim can't be true. Basic economics.
I'm not. You don't have a real pulse on the market it seems. These are just claims you're making without any basis. Just because you can find some people who can install Proxmox doesn't mean there is KVM expertise.
Also, Proxmox doesn't count as KVM expertise in case that's the angle you're trying to use here.
I never made the claim about anything about ProxMox. I just said that KVM skills are not in short supply. There's lots on the market. Everyone makes claims that there is a shortage to justify not providing in house talent and just going to vendors. It's an easy claim to make and if a company is crap at hiring it even makes it appear to be true. But we all work in IT and know that it's not even remotely true. Tons of people are on the market, and tons of support firms are too. The bottom line is that companies avoid hiring them (or anyone) because they like just paying a vendor as an excuse. Went through this this week, luckily once we talked about this exact stuff they understood immediately and didn't just hire a vendor to sell them stuff.
It's easy to follow the sales people and get paid as a middleman and not to do IT, so everyone wants to so it. Big enterprises are full of middle managers looking to protect their jobs. SO the process just keeps repeating. But don't repeat it to IT people as if we don't know better. We all know that skills are on the market and companies aren't hiring them.
Point to any consultancy other than yourself that specializes in KVM. You continually say things like "we know", "every one knows", "it's clear" but never provide any proof.
Libvirt and qemu clearly aren't used widely and it shows in their APIs. You can say vmware is because of sales people but people writing the automation around these solutions make it clear that it isn't. Tools like VMware and even nutanix to a degree are the most widely used because it's much much easier to integrate with them.
I love KVM and love to use it but there is clearly not a lot of KVM talent running around.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
From working in big business, if I was to use my small cross section of things, I'd say that VMware support is truly lacking in comparison to KVM.
Atatements like this are what make people not listen to things you say. This is just clearly not the case.
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@irj said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
The integration with the REST APIs is more important than any of the anscillary features of qemu/libvirt.
Exactly. Stuff isn't done manually anymore.
It's not even that about manual process. It's about being able audit, and have a repeatable process.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
@stacksofplates said in KVM or VMWare:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM or VMWare:
There's no shortage of KVM talent, so anyone telling you that they can't hire is actually telling you that they are so bad at searching that they can't function as a business or they are so bad to work for that no amount of money can fix it.
This simply isn't true. No one in the enterprise space runs qemu/libvirt. They've developed their own APIs (gvisor, firecracker, etc).
It's totally true. Just because you are talking to companies doing a bad job and lying about it and you are accepting what they say as truth doesn't make it so, at all. As long as talent is on the market, and it is without any shortage, then the issue is with the companies hiring (or failing to hire), this is just basic logic. They claim they can't hire, yet people are looking for that work that know what they are doing. GIven those facts, what they claim can't be true. Basic economics.
I'm not. You don't have a real pulse on the market it seems. These are just claims you're making without any basis. Just because you can find some people who can install Proxmox doesn't mean there is KVM expertise.
Also, Proxmox doesn't count as KVM expertise in case that's the angle you're trying to use here.
I never made the claim about anything about ProxMox. I just said that KVM skills are not in short supply. There's lots on the market. Everyone makes claims that there is a shortage to justify not providing in house talent and just going to vendors. It's an easy claim to make and if a company is crap at hiring it even makes it appear to be true. But we all work in IT and know that it's not even remotely true. Tons of people are on the market, and tons of support firms are too. The bottom line is that companies avoid hiring them (or anyone) because they like just paying a vendor as an excuse. Went through this this week, luckily once we talked about this exact stuff they understood immediately and didn't just hire a vendor to sell them stuff.
It's easy to follow the sales people and get paid as a middleman and not to do IT, so everyone wants to so it. Big enterprises are full of middle managers looking to protect their jobs. SO the process just keeps repeating. But don't repeat it to IT people as if we don't know better. We all know that skills are on the market and companies aren't hiring them.
