Ergonomic Keyboard
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I have a user that is complaining of wrist pain due to typing and has asked for an ergonomic keyboard. I'm not against this and want to get her what she needs to prevent any long term issues.
Is there any difference other than aesthetics when shopping for an ergonomic keyboard? Anything I should pay attention to that may make one better than another?
I've seen and been aware of these of course, but never used one nor shopped for one before.
I did see this old thread : https://mangolassi.it/topic/4411/microsoft-sculpt-ergonomic-keyboard-for-business
@IRJ Would you still recommend this keyboard?
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@braswelljay said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
https://mangolassi.it/topic/4411/microsoft-sculpt-ergonomic-keyboard-for-business
@IRJ Would you still recommend this keyboard?
Yes
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@braswelljay May want to take a gander at a few more options. Lot's out there. For e.g. this puppy covers many bases:
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I'm no expert but "Ergonomic Keyboard" has always seems a bit gimmicky to me. Is there genuine science behind the designs? There probably is.
I think the most important thing is to use a wrist rest to lift her wrists higher up. If she hasn't got one already, I'd just get one of those initially.
Again, I'm no expert, but I wonder if wrist pain can be caused by general desk posture - does having the right chair at the right height have an impact? Is she taking sufficient breaks. Or is she hunched over in a bad posture typing away for hours at a time?
I dunno, I just wonder if these ergonomic keyboard were designed by health professionals or marketing teams.
But I'm a big fan of gel wrist rests. They're also great for whacking people over the head.
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@carnival-boy said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
I'm no expert but "Ergonomic Keyboard" has always seems a bit gimmicky to me. Is there genuine science behind the designs? There probably is.
I think the most important thing is to use a wrist rest to lift her wrists higher up. If she hasn't got one already, I'd just get one of those initially.
Again, I'm no expert, but I wonder if wrist pain can be caused by general desk posture - does having the right chair at the right height have an impact? Is she taking sufficient breaks. Or is she hunched over in a bad posture typing away for hours at a time?
I dunno, I just wonder if these ergonomic keyboard were designed by health professionals or marketing teams.
But I'm a big fan of gel wrist rests. They're also great for whacking people over the head.
I’m not saying I know more than most, but having had carpel tunnel release surgery, it is a three-fold issue.
Posture
Height
AngleLikely may be something else as well.
You need good posture, squared shoulders sitting upright.
The height you sit at as compared to your desk/ keyboard is important. You elbows should be a 90drg angle. Not much more or less.
And then it’s the angle of your wrist and fingers to the keys.
Add pressure. I have a bad bad habit of resting my fore arms on my desk, adding pressure along the nerve s from almost the elbow to palm.. not good.
I think a analogy is to think of a garden or fire hose. If there is a ‘kink’ water does flow well.
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@carnival-boy said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
But I'm a big fan of gel wrist rests. They're also great for whacking people over the head.
I suggest they may well serve you better at the latter than former.
@gjacobse said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
Add pressure. I have a bad bad habit of resting my fore arms on my desk, adding pressure along the nerve s from almost the elbow to palm.. not good.
I think a analogy is to think of a garden or fire hose. If there is a ‘kink’ water does flow well.Spot on! All of those points are. Nicely done.
tl;dr??
Stay away from lappies and mobile devices cuz they're guaranteed to ruin yer' health!
I could expound on keyboards for hours but then I'd bore the crap outta' ya's! So instead I'll just point you to the dragon's lair of all things keyboard: GeekHack
P.S.; The Goldtouch keyboards do a very good job addressing the points listed by @gjacobse Tenting, for e.g., really helps out with carple tunnel sufferers. Or so I am told. Thankfully has not been one of my issues. The Goldtouch rigs use rubber dome switches - nice light 45g activation rubber dome's but still rubber domes - and after much empirical testing I have come to prefer mechanical switches. Cherry Brown MX's are my sweet spot. And yeah, I have a Topre board also. It is nice. Very smooth and refined. To quote The Matrix:
"Like wiping your ass with silk"....
P.P.S.; It is not just keyboards. Mind yer' mice and other inputs as well. I presently favor the Logitech MX Vertical. The buttons activate a bit light for my touch - still getting adapted - but they've really nailed it on the wrist angle and shaping. Evoluent also makes nice vertical mice.
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@carnival-boy said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
I'm no expert but "Ergonomic Keyboard" has always seems a bit gimmicky to me. Is there genuine science behind the designs? There probably is.
I'm completely in this boat. I've go carpal tunnel and type more than your average bear and there is absolutely no way that an ergonomic keyboard is better for me. The shape is awkward and causes more issues for my wrists than a normal keyboard. They are weird, slow and fatiguing. I truly believe that they are made by vendors as an excuse to make cheap items expensive, and as an excuse by workers to be slow and unproductive.
Honestly, nothing beats a quality regular keyboard. There's a reason you only see ergonomic keyboards in offices of big companies where people are hanging around the water cooler instead of working and never used by writers, gamers, programmers and other high performance "actually want their keyboards to work well" people. But you do see those people buying backlit, mechanical, and other specialty keyboards to make them more productive or comfortable.
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@carnival-boy said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
Again, I'm no expert, but I wonder if wrist pain can be caused by general desk posture - does having the right chair at the right height have an impact? Is she taking sufficient breaks. Or is she hunched over in a bad posture typing away for hours at a time?
Or just typing poorly. If you use too much pressure on your strike, are at the wrong height to the keyboard, or just don't type well you can cause a lot of strain or at least fatigue without needing to.
I write all day, every day on a $12 Amazon Basics keyboard and one of those silly ergonomic keyboards would cause me to do twice the wrist strain for the same productivity.
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@carnival-boy said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
I dunno, I just wonder if these ergonomic keyboard were designed by health professionals or marketing teams.
This ^^^
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@carnival-boy said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
I'm no expert but "Ergonomic Keyboard" has always seems a bit gimmicky to me. Is there genuine science behind the designs? There probably is.
I'm no expert either. I have, however, been incentivized to delve into this subject fairly deeply over the years. I'm just tossin' out some resources for whatever they may be worth to anyone else. I have my issues and system fairly well sussed out. There are no magic bullets cuz everything is connected to everything else, ya' dig? Hence, if nothing else, and something you, and everybody, can and should be doing - and it's even free:
- Work on good posture and mind yer' angles.
Without addressing poor posture, workstation ergonomics, etc. all the fancy fangled input devices become moot.
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@gotwf said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
@carnival-boy said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
I'm no expert but "Ergonomic Keyboard" has always seems a bit gimmicky to me. Is there genuine science behind the designs? There probably is.
I'm no expert either. I have, however, been incentivized to delve into this arena fairly deeply over the years. I'm just tossin' out some resources for whatever they may be worth to else. I have my issues and system fairly well sussed out. There are no magic bullets cuz everything is connected to everything else, ya' dig? Hence, if nothing else, and something you can do for free:
- Work on good posture and mind yer' angles.
Without addressing poor posture, workstation ergonomics, etc. all the fancy fangled input devices become moot.
agreed - And this is likely not something someone can really fix on their own. Their work space is their workspace - so unless the company is going to get them a new chair/desk, etc... I'm not sure what's going to change.
But - ALSO the person needs to change - they need to do their own due diligence and CHANGE their positioning... this is really hard to do... muscle memory takes a long time break, and even longer to train to a new normal.
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@dashrender said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
And this is likely not something someone can really fix on their own. Their work space is their workspace - so unless the company is going to get them a new chair/desk, etc... I'm not sure what's going to change.
Often it is. Not always, but often. Especially these days where most people are working from home.
What many people are now finding is that when their company was paying for it they needed special chairs, keyboards, and all kinds of stuff. And now when it is their own money involved, they will sit on boxes and type on a phone screen with their thumbs if it means not having to have a healthy workspace in their home.
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@scottalanmiller Ye' keep pokin' the bear and Imma' gonna' have to start posting up pics of my ultra high dollar, cost no object soho set up. But then I'd have to at least make a first pass at cleaning up my desk first so... there's that....
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https://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/6-reasons-you-shouldnt-buy-into-the-ergonomic-keyboard-hype/
- Ergonomic keyboards don’t actually protect against injury, or help users recover from typing-related injuries.
- Ergonomic keyboards are not intuitive to use for experienced typists.
- Ergonomic keyboards don’t actually have a consistent meaning.
- Ergonomic keyboards can actually cause certain injuries and fatigue.
- Ergonomic keyboards make people type more slowly.
- Ergonomic keyboards cost a lot of money.
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@pete-s said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
https://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/6-reasons-you-shouldnt-buy-into-the-ergonomic-keyboard-hype/
- Ergonomic keyboards don’t actually protect against injury, or help users recover from typing-related injuries.
- Ergonomic keyboards are not intuitive to use for experienced typists.
- Ergonomic keyboards don’t actually have a consistent meaning.
- Ergonomic keyboards can actually cause certain injuries and fatigue.
- Ergonomic keyboards make people type more slowly.
- Ergonomic keyboards cost a lot of money.
That sums up my feelings on the matter right there.
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@pete-s Interesting that DAS is so anti ergo when they benefit from a faction of the market looking for Cherry MX switch'ed boards. Which, off course, are, and have been, DAS's bread, butter, and jam.
So we have all these feelings being summarized. Blah, bleah. Feeling Madame? I know not feelings. Have you any data? If what you have works great for you then that is great for you. That does not mean that your singular experience extends to the universal.
As mentioned above, everything is connected to everything else. So after your done making excuses and have your workspace set up at least half way decently, worked on minimizing PEBKAC related, then these non commodity keyboards have their utilities.
I have used, but do not use as daily driver, tented Goldtouch keyboards. Prevention? Meh! This is for somebody who's gone a bit past that and lookin' to mitigate to some extent. And therein I've had favorable reports from carpel tunnel sufferers.
Myself, am a skinny guy so straight keyboard works for me. Ten keyless and Otaku, if you please. The switch is the distinguishing factor. Of course, becoming aware of and adapting your key strokes themselves to mechanical switches requires self awareness. And some practice. Practice to unlearn the "bottoming out" that is fact of life for a rubber dome switch to fire. Which of course leads to "pounding" the keyboard. At least by some. Be especially aware during times of stress.
So switch comparatives like to cite activation forces. And maybe switch travel as well if you are lucky. Ergo marketeers will push those low activation key switch as big 'feature'. And maybe they are for some.
But for me.. it is more about "arrival shock". And a with a good MX switch and some practice you can pretty much all but eliminate this one since the switch provides tactile feedback on activation and does not require bottoming out to fire. Seems to be the sweet spot for me and my particular issues.
Edit: Fortunately, the engineering of rubber dome switches themselves provides a cushion for arrival shock. But rubber dome switches are "mushy" comparatively. Also, if you switch to an MX based board do be wary of bottoming out cuz that rubber cushion is now absent.
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@gotwf said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
Feeling Madame? I know not feelings. Have you any data?
https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2014/01/09/242633.htm
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@gotwf said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
The switch is the distinguishing factor.
I don't believe there is any data that supports that assumption.
Having used keyboards since way before any of the current trends in keyboards existed and before the mouse was commonly used, I can't say I've noticed more or less problems regardless of switch technology used. I do notice a difference in speed though.
That said, whatever works works. So if it works for you then it's all good.
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@pete-s said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
I don't believe there is any data that supports that assumption.
Plenty. It is called empirical evidence collected by me over decades of keyboarding. This is not rocket science. Get a keyboard. Type on it for a few months. Get a different one. Compare and contrast. Wash, rinse repeat. If you're going to spend anywhere near as many hours per day behind a computer as I over the years, it behooves one to make an investment in their workstation. And I am not talking about the latest and greatest Ryzen's. But you've got to do this consciously. Try to find the sweet spot in the switch. What were the designers thinking? For me, the arrival shock of bottoming out seems to aggravate my Dupuytrens. Using Cherry MX mechanical switches helps me be more aware of my keyboarding technique and that greater awareness seems to translate into the real world as greater periods between surgeries.
Your mileage may vary. I was responding to a specific query from the OP. Then the rest of y'all macho types decided to dog pile on. But trouble is that yer' wrong. And right. Because the key is not whether something is branded as ergo or not but rather underlying causes. And if some gizmo like a better chair, monitor riser, foot riser, vertical mouse, mech keyboard provides even perceived benefits by the users? Hmm...who's to say whether that is effective or not, eh? Geeze, Louise! IT geeks make this huge investment in "professional development" every day just trying to keep minimally abreast. Make some investment in your physical well being and set up a decent office space. It's not that hard. Nor costly.
Be all that as it may.... I would posit that the biggest win for a mech keyboard is the typing experience itself. They just feel nicer. And I make lots less errors. In no small part, no doubt, because I am used to that sweet activation spot on these cherry browns. Scissor switches common on laptops are okay. Better than rubber domes. But still need to bottom out to activate. Cherry MX, Buckling Spring, Scissor, Rubber Dome, Topre Hybrid. Use whatever feels best. Who cares if the rig is $20 or $200? It does not matter over the decade you'll be using it. Write it off in three.
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@gotwf said in Ergonomic Keyboard:
I would posit that the biggest win for a mech keyboard is the typing experience itself. They just feel nicer.
Meh, this is my fav:
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