Why is it called automation?
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@scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:
Another important concept that applies to factories too is that "total automation" is essentially never possible. No factory, none, no automation anywhere of any kind, is absolutely complete. A human always comes into things somewhere. Maybe very little, maybe very late in the process, but always somewhere.
Just because everything imaginably can't be auomated doesn't mean that the parts that are automated aren't. It's not an all or nothing.
I already made that argument with him when he said a car will automatically shift up or down. Which sure, if it has an automatic transmission and the driver of the vehicle accelerates or slows down.
That driver could even be automated but that it still has to apply an action against something, to have an output.
"Oh shit person in the road, BRAKE".
A person would see with their eyes, and respond by slamming on the brakes. A self driving vehicle would do the similar.
It's all due to outside factors from the automation bit.
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So let's take the simplest example - installing a package of curl. This is "out of the box" automated with Salt, for example. You need do nothing, once Salt is set up, you just need to let the system know that you want curl installed somewhere. The automation handles the rest. It's not automated (out of the box) the decision of what to automate, it just has an empty automation framework. But it is so complete, that all you need to do is specify what package and where it would go, and the systems are fully automated from there. You never need to log into the system in question. The automation is literally 100% within the scope of the task being automated. And it goes far beyond just automating the task out of the box, it also automates the monitoring and repair of it.
That someone needs to specify what to automate is a given, there can never be an exception to that. Automation conceptually depends on being initiated. Beyond that, the automation is complete. So there can be no question, Salt (and the others) absolutely are automation in every conceivable way.
They can't be used to automate a factory, but just because they automate X and not Y, doesn't make them not automation.
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@DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:
I already made that argument with him when he said a car will automatically shift up or down. Which sure, if it has an automatic transmission and the driver of the vehicle accelerates or slows down.
But only in response to the driver giving input via the accelerator. If the human stops, the gears shift out and wait. It's not "fully automated" outside of a super limited scope that needs constant human interaction to keep automating. It's dramatically less automated than something like Salt that keeps being automated even after the human has left.
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Of course the self driving car, could do additional or unexpected things, like swerve, accelerate ( when you're gonna hit a deer ) etc.
But it's all due to the programming.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:
@DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:
I already made that argument with him when he said a car will automatically shift up or down. Which sure, if it has an automatic transmission and the driver of the vehicle accelerates or slows down.
But only in response to the driver giving input via the accelerator. If the human stops, the gears shift out and wait. It's not "fully automated" outside of a super limited scope that needs constant human interaction to keep automating. It's dramatically less automated than something like Salt that keeps being automated even after the human has left.
Absolutely, he provided the example, I was explaining how it requires human interaction to keep the car in 3rd.
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@DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:
Of course the self driving car, could do additional or unexpected things, like swerve, accelerate ( when you're gonna hit a deer ) etc.
But it's all due to the programming.
Right, all things that Salt or Ansible do, too. Self driving cars are a good example compared to Salt. Once you tell it where you want to go (or what you want it to do), it can do everything else, even respond to changing conditions. But someone has to decide where you are headed to.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:
@DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:
Of course the self driving car, could do additional or unexpected things, like swerve, accelerate ( when you're gonna hit a deer ) etc.
But it's all due to the programming.
Right, all things that Salt or Ansible do, too. Self driving cars are a good example compared to Salt. Once you tell it where you want to go (or what you want it to do), it can do everything else, even respond to changing conditions. But someone has to decide where you are headed to.
Self-driving cars are continuously controlling the cars behavior while Ansible run once to put one or more systems in a state defined by it's configuration. That's about as far from each other as possible and not at all the same thing. Or do you mean it's the same thing because it's all executed by programs in some form?
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@Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:
@DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:
Of course the self driving car, could do additional or unexpected things, like swerve, accelerate ( when you're gonna hit a deer ) etc.
But it's all due to the programming.
Right, all things that Salt or Ansible do, too. Self driving cars are a good example compared to Salt. Once you tell it where you want to go (or what you want it to do), it can do everything else, even respond to changing conditions. But someone has to decide where you are headed to.
Self-driving cars are continuously controlling the cars behavior while Ansible run once to put one or more systems in a state defined by it's configuration. That's about as far from each other as possible and not at all the same thing. Or do you mean it's the same thing because it's all executed by programs in some form?
Both know the "destination" and adjust and do what is necessary to get to it. Both detect "current state" and "desired state" and control the system to get from point A to point B without human intervention. Where are you perceiving a difference?
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@DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:
@DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:
I already made that argument with him when he said a car will automatically shift up or down. Which sure, if it has an automatic transmission and the driver of the vehicle accelerates or slows down.
But only in response to the driver giving input via the accelerator. If the human stops, the gears shift out and wait. It's not "fully automated" outside of a super limited scope that needs constant human interaction to keep automating. It's dramatically less automated than something like Salt that keeps being automated even after the human has left.
Absolutely, he provided the example, I was explaining how it requires human interaction to keep the car in 3rd.
No, the transmission is fully automated when it goes intro neutral if you break. It's not human interaction as it would do exactly the same if a robot pressed the break pedal. Or if a self-driving car would brake.
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@Pete-S by your logic stated above, if you had eight passengers and a five passenger self driving car, that car could not determine that you needed a second car, acquire a second car, bring the car to you, and drive it as well to the destination. But I can do this with Salt. So Salt meets your requirements, while a car or transmission do not.
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@Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:
@DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:
@DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:
I already made that argument with him when he said a car will automatically shift up or down. Which sure, if it has an automatic transmission and the driver of the vehicle accelerates or slows down.
But only in response to the driver giving input via the accelerator. If the human stops, the gears shift out and wait. It's not "fully automated" outside of a super limited scope that needs constant human interaction to keep automating. It's dramatically less automated than something like Salt that keeps being automated even after the human has left.
Absolutely, he provided the example, I was explaining how it requires human interaction to keep the car in 3rd.
No, the transmission is fully automated when it goes intro neutral if you break. It's not human interaction as it would do exactly the same if a robot pressed the break pedal. Or if a self-driving car would brake.
Salt is fully automated when it stops when state is achieved. But unlike the transmission, the human doesn't have to change the accelerator to put Salt into neutral, it detects the need for neutral on its own. Automated fully versus partially.
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@Pete-S are you just trolling us right now?
This seems to be far to repetitive to not be you messing with us.
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As already stated, no system in the world is 100% automated with out any input from the outside world.
If it were 100% automated, it would be sentient.
Sentience is completely different than being automated. You are sentient, a dog is sentient.
Most computer programs aren't even remotely sentient although that is changing with AI. And the sentience there is extremely limited.
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@Pete-S
Salt, Bash, Python, PowerShell, Ansible, cron, task scheduler, etc... are all tools used to automate all the things.
I don't understand the confusion here.
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Like with a car that's being driven down the road.
A brake can be applied, due to some outside factor. The driver wanting to slam on the brake and cause an accident or an AI sensing something that is obstructing the flow of traffic.
But in 1, the sentient HUMAN is saying, Screw this, and slams on the brake. In the other a program say STOP THE CAR.
The human understands that stopping the car on the road may cause a wreck, the AI may have an idea of how to avoid damage, but not that it would cause an wreck when it slams on the brake at 65 MPH.
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I'm not messing with you guys, but I think I have to give up on you. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
I think you answered my question though. I just have to face the fact that automation means something else to you and that is why Ansible, Salt etc are considered to be automation tools.
In my world automation is something more but I realize I'm the odd one out.
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@Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:
I'm not messing with you guys, but I think I have to give up on you. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
I think you answered my question though. I just have to face the fact that automation means something else to you and that is why Ansible, Salt etc are considered to be automation tools.
In my world automation is something more but I realize I'm the odd one out.
In what world? In your world the first robots built them selves, the cars have always known how to drive and that the scripts are created from literally nothing.
You have to be messing with us.
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@Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:
I'm not messing with you guys, but I think I have to give up on you. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
I think you answered my question though. I just have to face the fact that automation means something else to you and that is why Ansible, Salt etc are considered to be automation tools.
In my world automation is something more but I realize I'm the odd one out.
No, everything you are describing as automation Salt does. It's not a difference in definition of automation. It's a difference in understanding of these tools. In every example you have given, Salt and Ansible automate MORE than you expect, not less. They are beyond your scope of automation, not falling short. You are just not realizing how much they automate and how totally automatic they are.
Your automation definitions aren't wrong, just your understanding of the automation completeness of the products.
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@Obsolesce said in Why is it called automation?:
@Pete-S
Salt, Bash, Python, PowerShell, Ansible, cron, task scheduler, etc... are all tools used to automate all the things.
I don't understand the confusion here.
Exactly... automate all the things. Unlike the transmission or factory examples which just automate some of the things. Maybe they automate so much that it gets confusing?
