Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates
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@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce but are you REALLY up to date?
I'm using WSUS, and there is at least one update I haven't approved of. So as far as it knows, I am fully up to date.
Further down there's an option to search online for updates. I know if I did that it'd find the updates I haven't approved yet.
I always worry that WSUS has these same problems, but hides them because there are more places for things to break, so you really never know what is installed.
It installs everything it's supposed to, and logs the ones that have errors or don't install.
My point is, I don't trust what it says.
What matters is what it says after you click the button.
Why? If it is wrong before you press it, meaning it can't be trusted, what makes it trustworthy after you press the button?
It's like knowing that someone lies to you, but saying you can trust him in "some cases." But... how do you know when he's lying and when you can trust him?
I guess in the same way Fedora GUI says different than cli regarding updates. That is the same and can't be trusted.
PackageKit sometimes show updates that are still available even after using dnf.
Its one of thosednf upgrade --refreshvspkcon refresh && pkcon update. -
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce but are you REALLY up to date?
I'm using WSUS, and there is at least one update I haven't approved of. So as far as it knows, I am fully up to date.
Further down there's an option to search online for updates. I know if I did that it'd find the updates I haven't approved yet.
I always worry that WSUS has these same problems, but hides them because there are more places for things to break, so you really never know what is installed.
It installs everything it's supposed to, and logs the ones that have errors or don't install.
My point is, I don't trust what it says.
What matters is what it says after you click the button.
Why? If it is wrong before you press it, meaning it can't be trusted, what makes it trustworthy after you press the button?
It's like knowing that someone lies to you, but saying you can trust him in "some cases." But... how do you know when he's lying and when you can trust him?
I guess in the same way Fedora GUI says different than cli regarding updates. That is the same and can't be trusted.
Can't be, in Windows it's one thing that is wrong at one time and unknown at another. In Linux there is a master that is correct and an abstracted non-master that I don't use but might keep its own cache. The tool in Linux, dnf, that is the master is consistent. In Windows, the ONE tool that we KNOW is wrong, is the one you are saying you can trust. Totally different.
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I have seen this and I feel this is true, but then again I did just check mine and there were no new updates found.
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@penguinwrangler said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
I have seen this and I feel this is true, but then again I did just check mine and there were no new updates found.
At some point, the updates have actually been applied. Like if I run them manually, over and over, eventually it both says that none are available, and none actually are.
But like I updated a machine last week. Through 3-4 reboots, each time the system came up it said it was fully up to date, but still hadn't gone through all of the updates from just minutes before. So we can prove that its' not just failing to be up to date. It is actually checking, knows that updates are needed, and displays otherwise - over and over again, consistently.
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Which, in turn, I theorize, is causing Windows machines not to pull down updates that they should because even when set to update automatically, they check and see no updates, and don't update. I'm constantly finding machines not having updated for a long time, even when set to update constantly - but they always claim to be up to date until you check manually.
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@scottalanmiller Yeah thats why I have to run scripts to force them to check. This has been happening for years between windows10/windows 7
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce but are you REALLY up to date?
I'm using WSUS, and there is at least one update I haven't approved of. So as far as it knows, I am fully up to date.
Further down there's an option to search online for updates. I know if I did that it'd find the updates I haven't approved yet.
I always worry that WSUS has these same problems, but hides them because there are more places for things to break, so you really never know what is installed.
It installs everything it's supposed to, and logs the ones that have errors or don't install.
My point is, I don't trust what it says.
What matters is what it says after you click the button.
Why? If it is wrong before you press it, meaning it can't be trusted, what makes it trustworthy after you press the button?
It's like knowing that someone lies to you, but saying you can trust him in "some cases." But... how do you know when he's lying and when you can trust him?
I guess in the same way Fedora GUI says different than cli regarding updates. That is the same and can't be trusted.
Can't be, in Windows it's one thing that is wrong at one time and unknown at another. In Linux there is a master that is correct and an abstracted non-master that I don't use but might keep its own cache. The tool in Linux, dnf, that is the master is consistent. In Windows, the ONE tool that we KNOW is wrong, is the one you are saying you can trust. Totally different.
Don't know what answer you're looking for then, unless you're just wanting to complain? I get it... you open the update window, don't do anything, and it shows one thing. You click the button to run the update check and process and it then finds updates... seems fine to me. It causes me no issues at all.
Close your eyes and don't open them until you click the button that makes it check for and process updates?
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@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@obsolesce but are you REALLY up to date?
I'm using WSUS, and there is at least one update I haven't approved of. So as far as it knows, I am fully up to date.
Further down there's an option to search online for updates. I know if I did that it'd find the updates I haven't approved yet.
I always worry that WSUS has these same problems, but hides them because there are more places for things to break, so you really never know what is installed.
It installs everything it's supposed to, and logs the ones that have errors or don't install.
My point is, I don't trust what it says.
What matters is what it says after you click the button.
Why? If it is wrong before you press it, meaning it can't be trusted, what makes it trustworthy after you press the button?
It's like knowing that someone lies to you, but saying you can trust him in "some cases." But... how do you know when he's lying and when you can trust him?
I guess in the same way Fedora GUI says different than cli regarding updates. That is the same and can't be trusted.
Can't be, in Windows it's one thing that is wrong at one time and unknown at another. In Linux there is a master that is correct and an abstracted non-master that I don't use but might keep its own cache. The tool in Linux, dnf, that is the master is consistent. In Windows, the ONE tool that we KNOW is wrong, is the one you are saying you can trust. Totally different.
Don't know what answer you're looking for then, unless you're just wanting to complain?
Well, first, IS there a deterministic way to know what the story is? Or do we have to trust something that we know isn't working?
Two, identifying problems is the FIRST step to fixing them. Do you call all bug reports "just complaining?" If something doesn't work, should we ignore it?
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@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
You click the button to run the update check and process and it then finds updates... seems fine to me. It causes me no issues at all.
Nail on the head. Seems fine to you. You can't be sure, there is no way to be confident. You know the tool doesn't work. So lacking any definitive information, doing this one thing seems reliable because there isn't any way to know.
That's the entire issue summed up.
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@scottalanmiller I get what your saying. Its windows and how it works/doesn't work. I have never liked it either but if you manage Windows I do not know of a concrete way to really know what the situation is with any given machine. I mean, you can look to see what updates are installed but as far as knowing what is available to install and have it always be accurate, I'm in the dark here too.
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@jmoore said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
@scottalanmiller I get what your saying. Its windows and how it works/doesn't work.
I'm pretty sure that this used to work, though. And I wonder if there isn't some mechanism that doesn't work better that we just typically ignore.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
Well, first, IS there a deterministic way to know what the story is?
Nope. My Win10 home computer updates when it updates... I don't have any restrictions in place. When I click the button, i haven't noticed if it finds more updates. If it does, then great.
You might want to listen to that podcast I linked, it explains a lot of the update stuff in there.
It seems that not all PCs are supposed to get updates as soon as they are available. You may have one PC that gets the latest update... then another one that doesn't update for another week. (if you leave it all automatic and do nothing)
But it does appear that if you click the button, it can happen sooner. Who knows.... I don't really care. I know that the 500 or so Win10 computers I manage updates for via WSUS all update when they are supposed to. I also know that both Win10 devices at home update when they update, no restrictions.
I
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@scottalanmiller Ok I will be thinking about it. I know the powershell module I run has a command that will let me see what updates are out there. I just incorporated it as part of my script I have scheduled.
I will say I have never seen it work reliably before. Win 10 does it better than Win 7. When I first got here we had Win 7 machines that had not got updates in 2 years. My boss's wsus server told him everything was up to date too. I had my own (small) powershell knowledge so started implementing that and suddenly amchines had 200 updates to do
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@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
It seems that not all PCs are supposed to get updates as soon as they are available. You may have one PC that gets the latest update... then another one that doesn't update for another week. (if you leave it all automatic and do nothing)
Ugh, that's awful. A few hours, sure. Weeks? Why are we patching if it isn't important?
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@obsolesce said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
But it does appear that if you click the button, it can happen sooner. Who knows.... I don't really care. I know that the 500 or so Win10 computers I manage updates for via WSUS all update when they are supposed to.
This is the problem. Define "when they are supposed to" and define "I know." These are the two sticking points. How do we know, rather than just hope. And how is "supposed to" defined? If Windows shows the wrong info, "supposed to" seems to be an impossibility. And, likewise, "knowing" seems impossible.
That Windows is designed to go weeks without patching and patch at random or via some algorithm or lotto, that's fine (if documented) if the tools reported correctly and honestly. That they don't means we can't be sure of that.
Maybe this is really meant to be PowerShell only, and no one is taking the time to learn it, and the GUI is just the red headed step child and we don't realize that this is a half assed attempt at showing what PS actually knows?
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This is really an extension of my general complain with Windows 10 - it's not deterministic. On Fedora, if I use DNF I get the same answer every time, no matter what. I KNOW what info I'm getting, and I know I can trust it. With Windows, I get "some" info but it might be right or wrong, and it isn't the same machine to machine even when the machines are identical and the same tool gives different answers when run multiple times. It's not idempotent. It's unreliable. Same with searching in the Start menu. On Fedora, if I search for something it's the same every time and predictable. On Windows, the thing I'm searching for may or may not appear and is unpredictable. The GUI isn't reliably showing what is going on, you can't trust it. It shows something, but what it is showing, no one seems to be sure.
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But in PS, I know that if I go to do tab completion or run a command, it's the same every single time. It doesn't change out from under me. I wonder if the updates are similar.
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And today is now patch Tuesday so all the rules are out the window... and nothing will report right.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 Always Says Up to Date, But Always Needs Updates:
Maybe this is really meant to be PowerShell only, and no one is taking the time to learn it, and the GUI is just the red headed step child and we don't realize that this is a half assed attempt at showing what PS actually knows?
I would have to agree with this from my limited knowledge of the subject.
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This might be a place to start...
https://www.petri.com/manage-windows-updates-with-powershell-module
