Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi
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@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
What I do in my spare time is my own business. If I want to use free software on something and don't want to pay for support for free software, I wont.
I pay for all kinds of software and things at home because I don't want to waste my time on things. Backups of my personal data is worth $50 a year. My 2 cents, is for most people it's worth it. If the alternative is spending 4 hours rebuilding your desktop image it's still worth it.
I pay for all kinds of software and services at home too. What is a waste of time, however, is subjective, and very much depends on things you just cannot possibly know.
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@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
If the alternative is spending 4 hours rebuilding your desktop image it's still worth it.
On semi-related fact is that I have my stuff set up so a rebuild takes little longer than the install... 20 minutes tops if it's a surprise. Not sure how it can get to 4 hours with some standard organizational skills.
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@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
I don't hate Veeam. I just hate how they support some of their products.
They will support it, you are just not willing to pay....
I think what @Tim_G says is that he has the perception that Veeam releases the linux agent for free but then doesn't care about maintaining it compatible or giving proper support in the community . He probably refers to the difference found in support forums between a free commercial product and a proper opensource product with its own community. Two very different beasts IMHO.
I've just tried their agent for windows once and never looked in it soo much, therefore can't say.
The only think I know is that breaking a linux machine is quite hard to me and I tend to use stuff like rsnapshot for my spare time stuff... and a clonezilla just a beginning of a new deployment (just in case). All my SMB workloads are VM running agentless backups with Altaro at HV level. And my linux VM are all deployed with Ansible now so I really don't mind so much about more complex backup solutions for Linux.
I mostly mind for windows... 'coz it really scarries me :-s !
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@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
I’ve never had anything break with kernel updates except junk that installs third party kernel modules.
Relax and Recover does bare metal backups just fine, but who needs them when you can kickstart a physical machine and have it back to the exact same image in ~10 minutes? Our kickstart adds bare necessities like repos in the post install and then on reboot Ansible does a provisioning callback to Tower/AWX and Tower provisions the system. PXE boot, walk away and go to the bathroom and get coffee and come back and start working again.
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@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
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@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
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@tim_g said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
If the alternative is spending 4 hours rebuilding your desktop image it's still worth it.
On semi-related fact is that I have my stuff set up so a rebuild takes little longer than the install... 20 minutes tops if it's a surprise. Not sure how it can get to 4 hours with some standard organizational skills.
As a storage admin you end up with some...... crap software that you end up needing on your laptop (Think stuff that runs as local web servers, and database instances). Throw in other weird stuff (Applications virtualized with versions of Java) and a decent backup of things is quite nice. Thankfully more current work/home builds don't need any of that nonsense anymore (I spend most of my day in a browser, or in Franz for messaging) so as long as I can install office and a VDI client for a few things I'm pretty good with a naked laptop.
The other thing is recovering things like SSH keys cached etc could get annoying.
Passwords managers, and remote access tools that backup/externally store credentials are nice (although I'd argue that's a form of backup).
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@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
20 years on Linux and I’ve never seen this issue once. Use enterprise software and you should be good. How would any useful software carry kernel dependencies?
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@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
20 years on Linux and I’ve never seen this issue once. Use enterprise software and you should be good. How would any useful software carry kernel dependencies?
Block level storage hooks can often end up there (although there are exceptions like the micro-redirection in VAIO).... IN this case, it's Veeam making the software (curious where VMware came into this).
The other issue is API's changing that are called. People sometimes change them, sometimes they break etc.
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@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
20 years on Linux and I’ve never seen this issue once. Use enterprise software and you should be good. How would any useful software carry kernel dependencies?
Block level storage hooks can often end up there (although there are exceptions like the micro-redirection in VAIO).... IN this case, it's Veeam making the software (curious where VMware came into this).
The other issue is API's changing that are called. People sometimes change them, sometimes they break etc.
VMware came in because you (at VMware) were constantly running into issues that all of your software had kernel hooks, and ones that would break too.
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@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
20 years on Linux and I’ve never seen this issue once. Use enterprise software and you should be good. How would any useful software carry kernel dependencies?
Block level storage hooks can often end up there (although there are exceptions like the micro-redirection in VAIO).... IN this case, it's Veeam making the software (curious where VMware came into this).
The other issue is API's changing that are called. People sometimes change them, sometimes they break etc.
Again really the only time API changes should break anything outside of the OS is when software is using 3rd party kernel modules which is against best practices.
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@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
20 years on Linux and I’ve never seen this issue once. Use enterprise software and you should be good. How would any useful software carry kernel dependencies?
Block level storage hooks can often end up there (although there are exceptions like the micro-redirection in VAIO).... IN this case, it's Veeam making the software (curious where VMware came into this).
The other issue is API's changing that are called. People sometimes change them, sometimes they break etc.
VMware came in because you (at VMware) were constantly running into issues that all of your software had kernel hooks, and ones that would break too.
I ran into having to do bare metal restores with shit apps at Synchronet, and that was mostly windows garbage (That had DLL or Java version hell requirements).
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@stacksofplates said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
Again really the only time API changes should break anything outside of the OS is when software is using 3rd party kernel modules which is against best practices
I agree with you here, but historically certain functionality (Block level zero RPO, long distance no ack wait replication) tended to fall into this vooodoo land (Zerto, Recover Point, double take, never fail as examples).
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@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
20 years on Linux and I’ve never seen this issue once. Use enterprise software and you should be good. How would any useful software carry kernel dependencies?
Block level storage hooks can often end up there (although there are exceptions like the micro-redirection in VAIO).... IN this case, it's Veeam making the software (curious where VMware came into this).
The other issue is API's changing that are called. People sometimes change them, sometimes they break etc.
VMware came in because you (at VMware) were constantly running into issues that all of your software had kernel hooks, and ones that would break too.
I ran into having to do bare metal restores with shit apps at Synchronet, and that was mostly windows garbage (That had DLL or Java version hell requirements).
That doesn't surprise me. Those things I expect to break apps. But kernel versions, very rarely.
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@stacksofplates said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
20 years on Linux and I’ve never seen this issue once. Use enterprise software and you should be good. How would any useful software carry kernel dependencies?
Block level storage hooks can often end up there (although there are exceptions like the micro-redirection in VAIO).... IN this case, it's Veeam making the software (curious where VMware came into this).
The other issue is API's changing that are called. People sometimes change them, sometimes they break etc.
Again really the only time API changes should break anything outside of the OS is when software is using 3rd party kernel modules which is against best practices.
Which in turn makes those apps generally crap. (Zerto, for example.)
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@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
20 years on Linux and I’ve never seen this issue once. Use enterprise software and you should be good. How would any useful software carry kernel dependencies?
Block level storage hooks can often end up there (although there are exceptions like the micro-redirection in VAIO).... IN this case, it's Veeam making the software (curious where VMware came into this).
The other issue is API's changing that are called. People sometimes change them, sometimes they break etc.
VMware came in because you (at VMware) were constantly running into issues that all of your software had kernel hooks, and ones that would break too.
I ran into having to do bare metal restores with shit apps at Synchronet, and that was mostly windows garbage (That had DLL or Java version hell requirements).
That doesn't surprise me. Those things I expect to break apps. But kernel versions, very rarely.
Veeams providing a functionality that no one is. That generally means they had to do some hacktastic stuff. Until 2016 they had to write their own kernel driver for changed block tracking I'm pretty sure (it wasn't native to Hyper-V)
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I’ve heard of kernel issues with stuff like CarbonBlack but that’s written and used by infosec people who don’t understand the architectural differences between nix and windows.
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@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@stacksofplates said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
20 years on Linux and I’ve never seen this issue once. Use enterprise software and you should be good. How would any useful software carry kernel dependencies?
Block level storage hooks can often end up there (although there are exceptions like the micro-redirection in VAIO).... IN this case, it's Veeam making the software (curious where VMware came into this).
The other issue is API's changing that are called. People sometimes change them, sometimes they break etc.
Again really the only time API changes should break anything outside of the OS is when software is using 3rd party kernel modules which is against best practices.
Which in turn makes those apps generally crap. (Zerto, for example.)
They were kludges when you have an app that would take millions to refactor or migrate, lacks native DR capabilities, and the gaps from normally supported options are too big.
Now, with VAIO (which RP4VM's has moved too, and Veeam has announced will support) I expect Zerto to quietly implode in the corner.
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@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@stacksofplates said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@scottalanmiller said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@storageninja said in Veeam Backup and Replication for ESXi:
@tim_g Welcome to Linux. All kinds of shit breaks on new kernels...
If you want a *Nix based desktop that just "@#$@% works" and has a bare metal backup may I suggest MacOS and Time Machine? You can from the BIOS re-install bare metal even from Apple's servers (PXE over WAN).
What's bizarre to me is that you would waste time on forum support for something you complain enough to spend 30 minutes troubleshooting in forums or complaining here about. A license is $50-$30 per desktop per year. You apparently WANT a backup of the desktop and see value in it, but don't want to spend money....
I want a functioning car. I don't want to pay for gas. Sadly this doesn't work.
What crap software are you dealing with? Don’t know any software with this kind of problems. What crap does VMware run that they can’t update?
Not understanding this question....
20 years on Linux and I’ve never seen this issue once. Use enterprise software and you should be good. How would any useful software carry kernel dependencies?
Block level storage hooks can often end up there (although there are exceptions like the micro-redirection in VAIO).... IN this case, it's Veeam making the software (curious where VMware came into this).
The other issue is API's changing that are called. People sometimes change them, sometimes they break etc.
Again really the only time API changes should break anything outside of the OS is when software is using 3rd party kernel modules which is against best practices.
Which in turn makes those apps generally crap. (Zerto, for example.)
I agree 100%. And in the case of Symantec it created a horrible vulnerability where all the user had to do was receive an email (not even open it) and they were infected because of the way the kernel module was written (on Linux).
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@tim_g
Hi, I'm working for Veeam.
Could you be a little bit more specific on the following, please?
When a newer version of Linux (kernel) arrives, the fix no longer works.
What distro do you use?
Many softwares are free that work on CURRENT OSs, that do not automatically break every time there's a new kernel release.
I'm not sure which softwares are you referring to, would you provide an example of a backup software that works on current (not stable) releases?
I asked in their community forum which person I need to private message for a fix this time... and they point me to support to fix a product that's WAY behind.
Did they (support) provide you with the wrong fix?
<...> especially with how they treat the whole issue on their forums.
This one is interesting - no one would point you to the support team for no reason. Whoever forwarded you apparently had an information that support had the fix. Would you give us the link to the forum message that you've mentioned? Also, what's wrong with going directly to support team to obtain a fix, especially if someone form the company advised you to do so?
And yes, Veeam Agent for Linux requires you to install a 3rd party (Veeam's) kernel module to make the thing work. Otherwise there would be no snapshot and CBT (changed block tracking) capabilities in the product.
Thanks
