Student Loan Forgiveness Rant
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@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I'm not sure that's even a good litmus test... because when you get out school, if jobs were there when you started, there's no guarantee they will still be there when you get out. Not to mention that most job listings are fake as has been mentioned on several threads around here lately.
That's true, but some of the degrees are a bad idea at the time and will continue to be. Is basket weaving an industry that's set to explode?
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@mike-davis said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I'm not sure that's even a good litmus test... because when you get out school, if jobs were there when you started, there's no guarantee they will still be there when you get out. Not to mention that most job listings are fake as has been mentioned on several threads around here lately.
That's true, but some of the degrees are a bad idea at the time and will continue to be. Is basket weaving an industry that's set to explode?
It's more that that information shouldn't be used at all, because uncle sam shouldn't be loaning money out at all. The damned government should reduce it's footprint, reduce the amount charged in taxes and allow people and businesses to donate to charities and the charities can dole out grants to college bound students.
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The idea behind it is to keep people in government/non-profit service that typically pays less. For example, the public defenders office, where I will be working, qualifies for this so they can get attorneys and other professionals to work there longer than just a year or two because they don't have the ability to compete with the private sector most of the time. So it is a benefit for you staying for 10 years. So if I stay for 10 years, and make 120 on time qualifying payments, so it is not all of my student loans, which is the plan. That with me is going to be between 5,000 and 6,000 for each year of service. That puts my salary about where it should be, my current work countered me with more money than what the federal government is offering but no student loan help. When I calculate that in it is a wash. I have 7 years of Legal IT experience with one of the largest firms in the region. So I have the skills that the public defenders office needs. This forgiveness is what is giving them the edge right now in obtaining me. It is "Forgiveness" but it is a benefit for staying and working in the government/non-profit for that period of time and not jumping to a better paying job somewhere else. A lot of companies will do this as well. Trust me, I was beginning to pay on my student loans because I have paid off my other debt, and I would have paid it all off with no complaints, however, this is open to me and I am not going to just not take advantage of something that is available.
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The issue shouldn't be "we the government will supplement your salary by forgiving a loan which you promised to pay back".
That's not how student loans work. Getting a better paying job that offers you $10K more annually would offset the benefit of this practice and allow you to still pay your loans back.
It's a charity service to get people who, for one reason or another were dealt a bad hand.
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I as someone who's paid every penny of my student loans haven't received a government benefit from paying my bill.
Why should you get a benefit for working for a government agency receive a benefit that isn't / wasn't available to me?
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@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
What torqued my wife and I off was that a new program was put in place for teachers to have gov't funded loans forgiven, but she didn't qualify because she was before the start date they picked. But of course all the teachers since then.... HUGE reduction in student loan fees.
All of that said - I'm with Dustin in that the government shouldn't be using public money to put people through college. The government, often requiring college degrees, just furthers a system of waste and control.
I'm the opposite, the gov't should put everyone through college. It's the picking and choosing that is the problem.
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@scottalanmiller said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
What torqued my wife and I off was that a new program was put in place for teachers to have gov't funded loans forgiven, but she didn't qualify because she was before the start date they picked. But of course all the teachers since then.... HUGE reduction in student loan fees.
All of that said - I'm with Dustin in that the government shouldn't be using public money to put people through college. The government, often requiring college degrees, just furthers a system of waste and control.
I'm the opposite, the gov't should put everyone through college. It's the picking and choosing that is the problem.
I'm not against fully funded community college for everyone. I'm against forgiving debts that people have promised to pay back because a person is unable to find a higher paying job.
You agreed to the terms of the loan, now pay it back. Sorry you can't get/find a better job. Not the public's issue.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I as someone who's paid every penny of my student loans haven't received a government benefit from paying my bill.
Why should you get a benefit for working for a government agency receive a benefit that isn't / wasn't available to me?
@dustinb3403 It could be available to you. You are not barred from working for a non-profit or the government. How is it any different than a company saying if you work for 'x' amount of years we will pay off your student loans or a company saying we will pay for you to go back to school?
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@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I as someone who's paid every penny of my student loans haven't received a government benefit from paying my bill.
Why should you get a benefit for working for a government agency receive a benefit that isn't / wasn't available to me?
@dustinb3403 It could be available to you. You are not barred from working for a non-profit or the government. How is it any different than a company saying if you work for 'x' amount of years we will pay off your student loans or a company saying we will pay for you to go back to school?
Because the tax payers are the people are paying off your bad choices.
I chose to bust my ass and get a good paying job so I could pay my debts, because I don't want to be in debt forever.
You / me / and anyone else with college loans agreed to the terms on the loan. You can't go and change them after you get dealt a shit hand at life.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I as someone who's paid every penny of my student loans haven't received a government benefit from paying my bill.
Why should you get a benefit for working for a government agency receive a benefit that isn't / wasn't available to me?
@dustinb3403 It could be available to you. You are not barred from working for a non-profit or the government. How is it any different than a company saying if you work for 'x' amount of years we will pay off your student loans or a company saying we will pay for you to go back to school?
Because the tax payers are the people are paying off your bad choices.
I chose to bust my ass and get a good paying job so I could pay my debts, because I don't want to be in debt forever.
You / me / and anyone else with college loans agreed to the terms on the loan. You can't go and change them after you get dealt a shit hand at life.
What he's asking is, if you got a job today that agreed to go back and pay for your schooling that you already paid for, how would that be different? And they are free to do so.
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There wasn't an clause way back when you signed up for the student loans that if you paid for them for 20 years the debt would be forgiven. There certainly wasn't a clause at the time saying that if you went and worked for the Government a portion of the loans would be paid back.
You're essentially making $63000 back over the term of this "gift". That's a lot of money.
That isn't given equally.
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@scottalanmiller said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I as someone who's paid every penny of my student loans haven't received a government benefit from paying my bill.
Why should you get a benefit for working for a government agency receive a benefit that isn't / wasn't available to me?
@dustinb3403 It could be available to you. You are not barred from working for a non-profit or the government. How is it any different than a company saying if you work for 'x' amount of years we will pay off your student loans or a company saying we will pay for you to go back to school?
Because the tax payers are the people are paying off your bad choices.
I chose to bust my ass and get a good paying job so I could pay my debts, because I don't want to be in debt forever.
You / me / and anyone else with college loans agreed to the terms on the loan. You can't go and change them after you get dealt a shit hand at life.
What he's asking is, if you got a job today that agreed to go back and pay for your schooling that you already paid for, how would that be different? And they are free to do so.
But no one would. Absolutely no business would say "oh hey look you have 200K in paid-off student debt, let's give you that $200K if you work for us for 7 years".
That doesn't happen. You signed up for that debt, it's your job to pay it off by getting the job that pays you enough.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
There wasn't an clause way back when you signed up for the student loans that if you paid for them for 20 years the debt would be forgiven. There certainly wasn't a clause at the time saying that if you went and worked for the Government a portion of the loans would be paid back.
You're essentially making $63000 back over the term of this "gift". That's a lot of money.
That isn't given equally.
There isn't a clause in your loans that you will get a job after at all, but you don't get upset if people find jobs after going to school, right?
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@scottalanmiller said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I as someone who's paid every penny of my student loans haven't received a government benefit from paying my bill.
Why should you get a benefit for working for a government agency receive a benefit that isn't / wasn't available to me?
@dustinb3403 It could be available to you. You are not barred from working for a non-profit or the government. How is it any different than a company saying if you work for 'x' amount of years we will pay off your student loans or a company saying we will pay for you to go back to school?
Because the tax payers are the people are paying off your bad choices.
I chose to bust my ass and get a good paying job so I could pay my debts, because I don't want to be in debt forever.
You / me / and anyone else with college loans agreed to the terms on the loan. You can't go and change them after you get dealt a shit hand at life.
What he's asking is, if you got a job today that agreed to go back and pay for your schooling that you already paid for, how would that be different? And they are free to do so.
But no one would. Absolutely no business would say "oh hey look you have 200K in paid-off student debt, let's give you that $200K if you work for us for 7 years".
That doesn't happen. You signed up for that debt, it's your job to pay it off by getting the job that pays you enough.
That no one would is a totally different discussion.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
But no one would. Absolutely no business would say "oh hey look you have 200K in paid-off student debt, let's give you that $200K if you work for us for 7 years".
But nothing is stopping them from saying this...
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@scottalanmiller said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
There wasn't an clause way back when you signed up for the student loans that if you paid for them for 20 years the debt would be forgiven. There certainly wasn't a clause at the time saying that if you went and worked for the Government a portion of the loans would be paid back.
You're essentially making $63000 back over the term of this "gift". That's a lot of money.
That isn't given equally.
There isn't a clause in your loans that you will get a job after at all, but you don't get upset if people find jobs after going to school, right?
No because that it their responsibility. Get a job and pay your debts.
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A better way to look at this is I'm in the camp of "carry your own weight".
Don't expect others to pick you up after you.
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@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
What torqued my wife and I off was that a new program was put in place for teachers to have gov't funded loans forgiven, but she didn't qualify because she was before the start date they picked. But of course all the teachers since then.... HUGE reduction in student loan fees.
All of that said - I'm with Dustin in that the government shouldn't be using public money to put people through college. The government, often requiring college degrees, just furthers a system of waste and control.
I generally am a conservative-leaning person, but I have thought a decent amount about this issue and if the right solution was proposed, I believe I could get behind using public money to subsidize or pay for college education. The reason being is that from a gov't standpoint, this could be viewed as an investment. You aren't handing out a benefit that gives you zero return like many other gov't programs. In this scenario, you would be giving someone an opportunity to increase their job opportunities (less unemployment) and make higher wages which would then mean higher tax revenue for the gov't.
For instance, according to the latest numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median annual wage for a HS graduate is roughly $36,000. An Associate's Degree earns a median of $42,500, and a Bachelor's earns a median of $60,000.
The average cost of public university tuition and fees per year currently is around $10,000. So it costs $40,000 - $50,000, on average, for a Bachelor's Degree at a 4-year public, in-state university. Median earnings tell us though that those individuals with the 4 year degree are earning almost double the wages in comparison. If we stretch this out across a 40 year working career, that's an additional $960,000 that an individual is earning, spending, investing, and paying taxes on. If an individual paid even 10% in taxes through those 40 years, the gov't has earned an additional $96k based on that initial $40-50k investment.
Now this obviously isn't perfect math and there are many other variables. It makes no sense to pay $40k+ in some tuition for some bogus degree that will get someone nowhere. Maybe they could start a program like this from STEM related fields or fields that meet a certain job demand criteria.
Ultimately this wouldn't feel like a handout decision to me, but rather a business decision the gov't would be making to bring in more revenue long term.
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That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Also, people saying the government shouldnt be spending money on education, LOL.
It should be the highest expenditure of the federal government and local governments.
It should dwarf the War Department's budget. -
@momurda said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Again, this is still not a public issue.
His failure to be able to find a decent paying position has no bearing the loans he agreed to at the start of college. That is his debt.
Even if he is being taxed on this money at some insane rate, he's still being released from $63,000 of debt.
If he went to public college those loans may have been total $30,000 for a 2 year degree, which is way the hell cheaper.
Not my problem to pay for his or anyone's choice of going to a private college and not finding that sweet sweet money bags job to pay off the debt that they agreed too.
