Miscellaneous Tech News
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Now there is the grey area of "how much skimpy is stripping vs non-stripping." I'm using stripping meaning "getting attention by removing normal amounts of clothing".
To some degree, you can call nearly anything stripping - people remove clothing for attention all the time. But once you are making an overt show of it... like taking pictures, going to conventions, dancing on a pole...
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@RojoLoco said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Cosplay is mostly just hot chicks dressing up like anime (or whatever) characters. Anything outside of that is... well..... kinda useless.
Most cosplay is just a bizarre pretense for semi-public stripping. Which is bizarre that society is so against stripping, but so okay with it when it gets weird.
Stripping? WUT? Cosplay is about wearing a costume. Not removing it.
Your limited cross section of the world leaves you missing a lot. It's about wearing as little of that costume as possible, just enough to qualify as a custome.
I have several friends that are cosplay profesisonals. That's how they make their living, even being on television and stuff.
Of course this is true - but this represents less than 1% of the 'cosplay' community, hell, probably less than 0.1%.
That's more than is used by research firms to get cross sections.
How many people have a greater cross section?
I don't get what you're trying to say?
You painted cosplayers as strippers - period. You didn't say a crosssection, you said cosplayers.
No, I said they were MOSTLY strippers. You can't take MOST to mean ALL, ever.
Nor can you claim most. When it is obviously far from the truth, outside your little planet.
Anything but obvious. Not sure how you even think it's likely to not be the truth. What view of cosplaying do you have that is anything but predominantly this?
I personally have the view of the 501st, Rebel Legion, Mandolorian Mercs, and a dozen other costuming clubs - where stripping is not part of it at all.
These clubs have a HUGE membership.
Yes - I've seen the stripper cosplayers at conventions, they number in the single digits at most shows... What girls do to earn money on the side doesn't make them cosplayers - that makes them strippers in a costume. To get cosplay status in my book - you at least need to wear that shit in full on public, and more likely need to go to conventions in costume...
What's huge? Remember that cosplaying (by getting nearly naked) is a massive online industry now.
You're making it sound as if there is a cosplay industry for finding stripper talent. That is completely unfounded and borderline psychotic.
That's EXACTLY what a lot of cosplaying is. Stripping cosplay is a MASSIVE industry.
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What percentage of the world participate in cosplay conventions, and then what percentage of that actually use cosplay as a costume to strip from?
The vast majority of participants in cosplay aren't going out and stripping their clothes off for money. They may wear a costume that is skimpy and be paid for appearances and have a "set" but that is likely not the norm.
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There is even a cosplay term for standard stripping: "Lewds not Nudes". Not full nude, but lewd pics. You can often go on places like Patreon and pay for more clothes to come off.
Example...
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Now there is the grey area of "how much skimpy is stripping vs non-stripping." I'm using stripping meaning "getting attention by removing normal amounts of clothing".
To some degree, you can call nearly anything stripping - people remove clothing for attention all the time. But once you are making an overt show of it... like taking pictures, going to conventions, dancing on a pole...
You are attempting to redefine words that are already well defined.
Stop making things up.
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
What percentage of the world participate in cosplay conventions, and then what percentage of that actually use cosplay as a costume to strip from?
The vast majority of participants in cosplay aren't going out and stripping their clothes off for money. They may wear a costume that is skimpy and be paid for appearances and have a "set" but that is likely not the norm.
You claim this, but based on what? How much research have you done into the cosplay industry to believe this to be true? Lots of people do what you say, certainly. But thousands and thousands do exactly the opposite.
You say the vast majority, but go look at Instagram (which is way larger than the convention circuit)... I don't think your theory holds water.
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Now there is the grey area of "how much skimpy is stripping vs non-stripping." I'm using stripping meaning "getting attention by removing normal amounts of clothing".
To some degree, you can call nearly anything stripping - people remove clothing for attention all the time. But once you are making an overt show of it... like taking pictures, going to conventions, dancing on a pole...
You are attempting to redefine words that are already well defined.
Stop making things up.
What do you think that I made up? Strippers are a well known concept, and nearly no strippers do full nude. I'm using the exactly standard definition. What you YOU think strippers are?
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Now there is the grey area of "how much skimpy is stripping vs non-stripping." I'm using stripping meaning "getting attention by removing normal amounts of clothing".
To some degree, you can call nearly anything stripping - people remove clothing for attention all the time. But once you are making an overt show of it... like taking pictures, going to conventions, dancing on a pole...
You are attempting to redefine words that are already well defined.
Stop making things up.
What do you think that I made up? Strippers are a well known concept, and nearly no strippers do full nude. I'm using the exactly standard definition. What you YOU think strippers are?
Strippers remove vast amounts of clothing for attention and money. Cosplayers put limited amounts of clothing on for money and attention (and generally do not take it off while cosplaying).
Once they start taking off their costume, they become strippers.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@RojoLoco said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Cosplay is mostly just hot chicks dressing up like anime (or whatever) characters. Anything outside of that is... well..... kinda useless.
Most cosplay is just a bizarre pretense for semi-public stripping. Which is bizarre that society is so against stripping, but so okay with it when it gets weird.
Stripping? WUT? Cosplay is about wearing a costume. Not removing it.
Your limited cross section of the world leaves you missing a lot. It's about wearing as little of that costume as possible, just enough to qualify as a custome.
I have several friends that are cosplay profesisonals. That's how they make their living, even being on television and stuff.
Of course this is true - but this represents less than 1% of the 'cosplay' community, hell, probably less than 0.1%.
That's more than is used by research firms to get cross sections.
How many people have a greater cross section?
I don't get what you're trying to say?
You painted cosplayers as strippers - period. You didn't say a crosssection, you said cosplayers.
No, I said they were MOSTLY strippers. You can't take MOST to mean ALL, ever.
I take mostly to mean more than 50% - and i just told you that likely less than 1% actually strip.
so no, it's not mostly - not even close.Correct. Most means over 50%. Maybe in your world less than 1% strip. But you can't make that claim with any credibility without totally making my point that my cross section of it being the vast majority being credible. Because both is just our view of it.
I get that you are part of the 49% that don't strip. But that means that your view is much, MUCH more likely to see the non-stripping portion of the industry.
I suppose I can give you that your exposure to this is mostly on the stripper only side.
You hang out at a lot more bars than I do - but again I'll say, that those strippers you know that do this for a living, aren't real cosplayers, they are simply borrowing the term to give themselves legitimacy in their stripping. The borderline exception are your friends who are attending conventions in those costumes... -
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Now there is the grey area of "how much skimpy is stripping vs non-stripping." I'm using stripping meaning "getting attention by removing normal amounts of clothing".
To some degree, you can call nearly anything stripping - people remove clothing for attention all the time. But once you are making an overt show of it... like taking pictures, going to conventions, dancing on a pole...
You are attempting to redefine words that are already well defined.
Stop making things up.
What do you think that I made up? Strippers are a well known concept, and nearly no strippers do full nude. I'm using the exactly standard definition. What you YOU think strippers are?
Strippers remove vast amounts of clothing for attention and money. Cosplayers put limited amounts of clothing on for money and attention (and generally do not take it off while cosplaying).
Professional strippers get money. Lots do it either for pure attention or the hope of getting money. That's what I am saying most cosplayers do. They remove most of their normal clothes, leaving very limited "costume" bits, take pics and videos for attention and very often a hope of money.
If you are trying to say that you feel cosplaying is technically just soft porn rather than stripping because they start skimpy rather than starting more covered and going down on a video or pic series... well okay. That's viable, then it's just porn in your opinion. I can accept that. But saying that stripping requires you to view the removal of the clothes rather than the result of them is weird... like a stripper is only a stripper if we see it happen, if we look away, they aren't stripping but are just nearly naked.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@coliver said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@RojoLoco said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Cosplay is mostly just hot chicks dressing up like anime (or whatever) characters. Anything outside of that is... well..... kinda useless.
Most cosplay is just a bizarre pretense for semi-public stripping. Which is bizarre that society is so against stripping, but so okay with it when it gets weird.
Stripping? WUT? Cosplay is about wearing a costume. Not removing it.
Your limited cross section of the world leaves you missing a lot. It's about wearing as little of that costume as possible, just enough to qualify as a custome.
I have several friends that are cosplay profesisonals. That's how they make their living, even being on television and stuff.
Of course this is true - but this represents less than 1% of the 'cosplay' community, hell, probably less than 0.1%.
That's more than is used by research firms to get cross sections.
How many people have a greater cross section?
I don't get what you're trying to say?
You painted cosplayers as strippers - period. You didn't say a crosssection, you said cosplayers.
No, I said they were MOSTLY strippers. You can't take MOST to mean ALL, ever.
Nor can you claim most. When it is obviously far from the truth, outside your little planet.
Anything but obvious. Not sure how you even think it's likely to not be the truth. What view of cosplaying do you have that is anything but predominantly this?
I mean most of it? I have quite a few acquaintances that cosplay at major cons. Men and women alike who aren't strippers and aren't doing it to show off skin but simply doing it because they love the crafting parts of it and showing off their craftsmanship. On top of that just watch video from the Con floors at any of the big ones. You'll see that most people aren't dressed in skimpy outfits but are in highly intricate and custom costumes.
Those shows are only a small amount of cosplaying today. Most cosplaying, as I understand it, is on Instagram.
/sigh - that's not cosplay. That's posing.
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@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@RojoLoco said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Cosplay is mostly just hot chicks dressing up like anime (or whatever) characters. Anything outside of that is... well..... kinda useless.
Most cosplay is just a bizarre pretense for semi-public stripping. Which is bizarre that society is so against stripping, but so okay with it when it gets weird.
Stripping? WUT? Cosplay is about wearing a costume. Not removing it.
Your limited cross section of the world leaves you missing a lot. It's about wearing as little of that costume as possible, just enough to qualify as a custome.
I have several friends that are cosplay profesisonals. That's how they make their living, even being on television and stuff.
Of course this is true - but this represents less than 1% of the 'cosplay' community, hell, probably less than 0.1%.
That's more than is used by research firms to get cross sections.
How many people have a greater cross section?
I don't get what you're trying to say?
You painted cosplayers as strippers - period. You didn't say a crosssection, you said cosplayers.
No, I said they were MOSTLY strippers. You can't take MOST to mean ALL, ever.
I take mostly to mean more than 50% - and i just told you that likely less than 1% actually strip.
so no, it's not mostly - not even close.Correct. Most means over 50%. Maybe in your world less than 1% strip. But you can't make that claim with any credibility without totally making my point that my cross section of it being the vast majority being credible. Because both is just our view of it.
I get that you are part of the 49% that don't strip. But that means that your view is much, MUCH more likely to see the non-stripping portion of the industry.
I suppose I can give you that your exposure to this is mostly on the stripper only side.
You hang out at a lot more bars than I do - but again I'll say, that those strippers you know that do this for a living, aren't real cosplayers, they are simply borrowing the term to give themselves legitimacy in their stripping. The borderline exception are your friends who are attending conventions in those costumes...That's not really fare. I get your point, but how do you define "real" cosplays versus the majority of people? As Jared says, the use of the language defines its use and you are using cosplayer to mean something different from most people.
I agree, they are using cosplay to give legitimacy to stripping, obviously. That's why it was considered a "nerd" activity till suddenly girls realized that they could use it as an excuse to strip. No question in my mind, the majority of cosplayers use the concept as a "cover" for their stripping. But that doesn't make it not cosplaying.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@RojoLoco said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Cosplay is mostly just hot chicks dressing up like anime (or whatever) characters. Anything outside of that is... well..... kinda useless.
Most cosplay is just a bizarre pretense for semi-public stripping. Which is bizarre that society is so against stripping, but so okay with it when it gets weird.
Stripping? WUT? Cosplay is about wearing a costume. Not removing it.
Your limited cross section of the world leaves you missing a lot. It's about wearing as little of that costume as possible, just enough to qualify as a custome.
I have several friends that are cosplay profesisonals. That's how they make their living, even being on television and stuff.
Of course this is true - but this represents less than 1% of the 'cosplay' community, hell, probably less than 0.1%.
That's more than is used by research firms to get cross sections.
How many people have a greater cross section?
I don't get what you're trying to say?
You painted cosplayers as strippers - period. You didn't say a crosssection, you said cosplayers.
No, I said they were MOSTLY strippers. You can't take MOST to mean ALL, ever.
Nor can you claim most. When it is obviously far from the truth, outside your little planet.
Anything but obvious. Not sure how you even think it's likely to not be the truth. What view of cosplaying do you have that is anything but predominantly this?
I personally have the view of the 501st, Rebel Legion, Mandolorian Mercs, and a dozen other costuming clubs - where stripping is not part of it at all.
These clubs have a HUGE membership.
Yes - I've seen the stripper cosplayers at conventions, they number in the single digits at most shows... What girls do to earn money on the side doesn't make them cosplayers - that makes them strippers in a costume. To get cosplay status in my book - you at least need to wear that shit in full on public, and more likely need to go to conventions in costume...
What's huge? Remember that cosplaying (by getting nearly naked) is a massive online industry now.
That's not cosplay being skimpy - that's strippers finding a new way to find clients. not the same. But I guess many things morph like this - so to the morphing end - whatever.
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Stripping is the act of removing clothes for attention and money.
Cosplay is playing the role of a character from a anime or TV series and has literally nothing to do with strippers. Just because both may be scantily clad in clothes does not make them one in the same.
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@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@coliver said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@RojoLoco said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Cosplay is mostly just hot chicks dressing up like anime (or whatever) characters. Anything outside of that is... well..... kinda useless.
Most cosplay is just a bizarre pretense for semi-public stripping. Which is bizarre that society is so against stripping, but so okay with it when it gets weird.
Stripping? WUT? Cosplay is about wearing a costume. Not removing it.
Your limited cross section of the world leaves you missing a lot. It's about wearing as little of that costume as possible, just enough to qualify as a custome.
I have several friends that are cosplay profesisonals. That's how they make their living, even being on television and stuff.
Of course this is true - but this represents less than 1% of the 'cosplay' community, hell, probably less than 0.1%.
That's more than is used by research firms to get cross sections.
How many people have a greater cross section?
I don't get what you're trying to say?
You painted cosplayers as strippers - period. You didn't say a crosssection, you said cosplayers.
No, I said they were MOSTLY strippers. You can't take MOST to mean ALL, ever.
Nor can you claim most. When it is obviously far from the truth, outside your little planet.
Anything but obvious. Not sure how you even think it's likely to not be the truth. What view of cosplaying do you have that is anything but predominantly this?
I mean most of it? I have quite a few acquaintances that cosplay at major cons. Men and women alike who aren't strippers and aren't doing it to show off skin but simply doing it because they love the crafting parts of it and showing off their craftsmanship. On top of that just watch video from the Con floors at any of the big ones. You'll see that most people aren't dressed in skimpy outfits but are in highly intricate and custom costumes.
Those shows are only a small amount of cosplaying today. Most cosplaying, as I understand it, is on Instagram.
/sigh - that's not cosplay. That's posing.
What? So you are saying that the cosplay world as the world knows it is all posing, and you have a different cosplay that isn't what anyone else is discussing that is "real" and everything that people know is pretend?
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Stripping is the act of removing for attention and money.
Cosplay is playing the role of a character from a anime or TV series and has literally nothing to do with strippers. Just because both of scantily clad in clothes does not make them one in the same.
ACtually, it does. By definition. Both involve (or often involve) taking off clothing for attention. That the remaining clothing is "themed" is neither here nor there as far as stripping goes.
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@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Stripping is the act of removing for attention and money.
Cosplay is playing the role of a character from a anime or TV series and has literally nothing to do with strippers. Just because both of scantily clad in clothes does not make them one in the same.
ACtually, it does. By definition. Both involve (or often involve) taking off clothing for attention. That the remaining clothing is "themed" is neither here nor there as far as stripping goes.
Find me the definitions if you believe so. I've already posted numerous which disprove you.
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Now there is the grey area of "how much skimpy is stripping vs non-stripping." I'm using stripping meaning "getting attention by removing normal amounts of clothing".
To some degree, you can call nearly anything stripping - people remove clothing for attention all the time. But once you are making an overt show of it... like taking pictures, going to conventions, dancing on a pole...
You are attempting to redefine words that are already well defined.
Stop making things up.
Well, sadly, in this case it's not Scott - but the strippers - the lewdist are doing it - they are cooping the cosplay term to give themselves legitimacy...
I bought some cosplay pictures yesterday sounds a lot better than I bought some stripper pictures yesterday.
Strippers have always used costumes - now, they are just using costumes that 'costumers' have traditionally had.
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@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@JaredBusch said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@RojoLoco said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Cosplay is mostly just hot chicks dressing up like anime (or whatever) characters. Anything outside of that is... well..... kinda useless.
Most cosplay is just a bizarre pretense for semi-public stripping. Which is bizarre that society is so against stripping, but so okay with it when it gets weird.
Stripping? WUT? Cosplay is about wearing a costume. Not removing it.
Your limited cross section of the world leaves you missing a lot. It's about wearing as little of that costume as possible, just enough to qualify as a custome.
I have several friends that are cosplay profesisonals. That's how they make their living, even being on television and stuff.
Of course this is true - but this represents less than 1% of the 'cosplay' community, hell, probably less than 0.1%.
That's more than is used by research firms to get cross sections.
How many people have a greater cross section?
I don't get what you're trying to say?
You painted cosplayers as strippers - period. You didn't say a crosssection, you said cosplayers.
No, I said they were MOSTLY strippers. You can't take MOST to mean ALL, ever.
Nor can you claim most. When it is obviously far from the truth, outside your little planet.
Anything but obvious. Not sure how you even think it's likely to not be the truth. What view of cosplaying do you have that is anything but predominantly this?
I personally have the view of the 501st, Rebel Legion, Mandolorian Mercs, and a dozen other costuming clubs - where stripping is not part of it at all.
These clubs have a HUGE membership.
Yes - I've seen the stripper cosplayers at conventions, they number in the single digits at most shows... What girls do to earn money on the side doesn't make them cosplayers - that makes them strippers in a costume. To get cosplay status in my book - you at least need to wear that shit in full on public, and more likely need to go to conventions in costume...
What's huge? Remember that cosplaying (by getting nearly naked) is a massive online industry now.
That's not cosplay being skimpy - that's strippers finding a new way to find clients. not the same. But I guess many things morph like this - so to the morphing end - whatever.
But it's both. Yes, it is strippers finding a new outlet.... through cosplay.
Imagine if you like drinking beer. Then imagine you are embarrassed to just drink beer without a reason. Then you find darts. You don't dislike darts. So you play darts as an excuse to drink beer.
You can't say that they aren't playing darts, just because they do so because they like to drink beer. You can easily say that they aren't very serious at darts, or passionate about darts. But you can't say that they aren't playing darts.
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@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Now there is the grey area of "how much skimpy is stripping vs non-stripping." I'm using stripping meaning "getting attention by removing normal amounts of clothing".
To some degree, you can call nearly anything stripping - people remove clothing for attention all the time. But once you are making an overt show of it... like taking pictures, going to conventions, dancing on a pole...
You are attempting to redefine words that are already well defined.
Stop making things up.
Well, sadly, in this case it's not Scott - but the strippers - the lewdist are doing it - they are cooping the cosplay term to give themselves legitimacy...
I bought some cosplay pictures yesterday sounds a lot better than I bought some stripper pictures yesterday.
Strippers have always used costumes - now, they are just using costumes that 'costumers' have traditionally had.
They aren't coopting the cosplay word, they are coopting cosplay itself. It's a little different. They are actually cosplaying, they are actually stripping. It's a merger of the two. Finding ways to do both because one on its own they presumably find boring and the other they probably feel isn't socially acceptable enough to tell their parents that that is what they are doing.
