Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly
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@worden2 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
Forgive my ignorance on SW and ML, and you elaborate?
Around these parts they mean:
SW = Spiceworks (community.spiceworks.com)
ML = MangoLassi (mangolassi.it) -
@jaredbusch said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@worden2 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@jaredbusch said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
Also, mods add tags.
Sorry about that.
Meh, it is not the most obvious thing in the world.
You can add tags by editing your initial post if you want, or a mod will get to it.
LOL - while not IT related - the use of tags in general seems to be a pretty new thing. I know they have been around just about forever, but their actual use is pretty light. A good thing to toss into an intro class somewhere.
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@worden2 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@ndc said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
This is always a fun topic around here. There are a few previous discussions you can take a look at under the IT Education tag that might be worth your time to review.
I will, and I should've done my research before posting (duh). Thank you.
No worries, I was just pointing out a resource you may not have realized existed since you're new. Creating another discussion on the topic is certainly not a problem. It's sort of a moving target so can bear continued discussion. Also since you are coming from a different point of view on the topic from the majority of contributors here we may get some new conclusions going.
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@worden2 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
..., whether or not to change the name of the program to Systems Administration (not too many "Server Admin" positions listed),
Not to get stuck in the weeds. But Server Admin is a title for the bench field, not for IT. A server admin is the title for someone that manages the physical hardware of servers (plugging in drives, racking and stacking, plugging in cables) and system admin is the name for the role that manages the operating system. So system admin is the top tier IT job roles, easily commanding $200K+. Whereas server admin is the top tier bench role, commanding low $100K in large datacenters with high security at the very top of the field.
The CompTIA Server+ is the cert for Server Admin.
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@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
IT education has to be dated, by some amount. If education was bleeding edge, the person teaching the course would be learning the material with the class.
You have to do that to be an IT pro. If the professor isn't learning with the class, you've got a big problem.
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@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
IT education has to be dated, by some amount. If education was bleeding edge, the person teaching the course would be learning the material with the class.
You have to do that to be an IT pro. If the professor isn't learning with the class, you've got a big problem.
Um.. . . read that again. The profession at least needs to know what is going on. Learning is good, but they should be learning the material before the rest of the class.
It's why they are the professor.
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@dashrender said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@jaredbusch said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@worden2 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@jaredbusch said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
Also, mods add tags.
Sorry about that.
Meh, it is not the most obvious thing in the world.
You can add tags by editing your initial post if you want, or a mod will get to it.
LOL - while not IT related - the use of tags in general seems to be a pretty new thing. I know they have been around just about forever, but their actual use is pretty light. A good thing to toss into an intro class somewhere.
I was studying taxonomic classification in 2003, it was a major topic at the time because folksonomy of the web was really the hot thing of the era and that's where a lot of research and thought in IT was going. Long before these kinds of communities were arising. Taxonomy and folksonomy would be good topics for an IT curriculum.
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@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
IT education has to be dated, by some amount. If education was bleeding edge, the person teaching the course would be learning the material with the class.
You have to do that to be an IT pro. If the professor isn't learning with the class, you've got a big problem.
Um.. . . read that again. The profession at least needs to know what is going on. Learning is good, but they should be learning the material before the rest of the class.
It's why they are the professor.
Not really, if you need the class to hold back for you to catch up, you are the opposite of a professor.
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@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
IT education has to be dated, by some amount. If education was bleeding edge, the person teaching the course would be learning the material with the class.
You have to do that to be an IT pro. If the professor isn't learning with the class, you've got a big problem.
Um.. . . read that again. The profession at least needs to know what is going on. Learning is good, but they should be learning the material before the rest of the class.
It's why they are the professor.
Not really, if you need the class to hold back for you to catch up, you are the opposite of a professor.
This is a scott-ism. The point of being in the class is because you want to learn from an expert on the course material. Not because you want to learn with the professor.
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@worden2 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
So, with that background, how do all of you feel about the "state of IT education" and what can be done, if anything, to make it better?
The state is bad, no getting around that. Too little is taught, what is taught is often outdated or wrong. The pace of the educational process is often far too slow. And there is the insanely large challenge of incoming students half not knowing even the most basic tenants of the subject and the other half already having a mastery far in excess of the program.
Something that I see a lot is schools leaning towards teaching too much button pushing which becomes outdated practically overnight and should not need to be taught; and very little teaching of fundamentals that are essentially timeless.
Like I often say, because I actually learned the MCSE material in the 1990s, I can do most all IT today. Nothing has really changed. But people that just memorized answers at the time are totally lost today because what buttons to push are totally different, but the underlying technologies and factors have barely changed at all.
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@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
IT education has to be dated, by some amount. If education was bleeding edge, the person teaching the course would be learning the material with the class.
You have to do that to be an IT pro. If the professor isn't learning with the class, you've got a big problem.
Um.. . . read that again. The profession at least needs to know what is going on. Learning is good, but they should be learning the material before the rest of the class.
It's why they are the professor.
Not really, if you need the class to hold back for you to catch up, you are the opposite of a professor.
This is a scott-ism. The point of being in the class is because you want to learn from an expert on the course material. Not because you want to learn with the professor.
No, the goal is to learn. Period. Not to learn from an expert on the course material. That's both silly, why cares from where you learn as long as you learn? And impossible, colleges simply don't have material experts. It's not realistic for nearly any field, let alone IT.
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@worden2 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
... how to incorporate Azure, AWS, or even Docker into the program.
Into a system admin program? Pretty casually. That's platform admin work. And doesn't require a lot of know how.
This is where I would think something like a course on architecture would be good. Something that teaches platforms, cloud, systems, and more holistic views of IT would make more sense. IT isn't as compartmentalized as it sounds (and as I often make it sound.) Job roles might be very tight, but they all work together. They are just cogs. You need to be teaching the machine at some point, probably before teaching much of the cogs.
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@jaredbusch said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
Also, mods add tags.
Done
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@worden2 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
At some point I'm being disruptive to the status quo, which adds to my peers' workload and diminishes the necessary academic consistency.
Consistency only has value if it is consistently good. Something that is consistently bad would benefit from being inconsistent.
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@scottalanmiller I want to get stuck in the weeds! The irony is that one of our staff IT managers was doing a tour of the campuses to see our setups (we maintain a separate network and MDF on all our "cyber center" campuses), and when I mentioned the push to allow for online (synchronous webcast, not asynchronous) classes in Server Admin - and the pushback from my peers - he was quick to point out that he had a team of six IT admins that NEVER touch the racks.
My peers on the curriculum committee are adamant that we have to be a "hands-on" program, and I agree to a point. But that's only to the point that you can remote in and work on your server! After that, all I care about is that students have real-time interactions with their professors during set class times instead of randomly checking in to their online classes.
You'd be surprised how hard it is to change the name of a program, even though over the 15 years I've been here we've gone from the Computer Information Systems program under the Business School, to the CIS/Computer Information Technology program, to our own School as "Computing and Informatics" to now just the School of IT. But, when I propose we go from Server Administration to Systems Administration, it goes over like a fart in church... sigh... -
@scottalanmiller Agreed.
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@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
IT education has to be dated, by some amount. If education was bleeding edge, the person teaching the course would be learning the material with the class.
You have to do that to be an IT pro. If the professor isn't learning with the class, you've got a big problem.
Um.. . . read that again. The profession at least needs to know what is going on. Learning is good, but they should be learning the material before the rest of the class.
It's why they are the professor.
Not really, if you need the class to hold back for you to catch up, you are the opposite of a professor.
To put my 2 cents in on it. There are times you bring "deep knowledge" to a new class you're teaching, and other times necessity puts you in the position of staying a week ahead of the students, so to speak. One of my mentors once said "if you ever want to really learn something, teach it". For instance, I have multiple degrees and industry certs, but I really think of myself as a professional educator because that's what I've actually been doing as a day-to-day job for a decade and a half.
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@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dustinb3403 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
IT education has to be dated, by some amount. If education was bleeding edge, the person teaching the course would be learning the material with the class.
You have to do that to be an IT pro. If the professor isn't learning with the class, you've got a big problem.
Um.. . . read that again. The profession at least needs to know what is going on. Learning is good, but they should be learning the material before the rest of the class.
It's why they are the professor.
Not really, if you need the class to hold back for you to catch up, you are the opposite of a professor.
This is a scott-ism. The point of being in the class is because you want to learn from an expert on the course material. Not because you want to learn with the professor.
It's weird. I agree with you both! For instance, we require our faculty to be certified in classes that lead to a cert, so if you teach the class that corresponds to the first MCSA cert (70-410 right now) you have to have that, but you don't have to have had the 411 and 412 passed to teach it. Should that change? I'm not sure. Also, we used to build the cert into the course, but we now have the "didactic" 3 credit hour classes that lead to a 1 credit hour "workforce preparation" class, so should we only have the cert requirement on the 1 credit hour classes so we're not short of qualified faculty to teach it? This is one of the reasons I'm on these boards now. I see SAM talk about LANless futures and what the "true" definition of IT is and I realize that at the very least I'll see a side I might be insulated from with your perspectives. Thank you for that!
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@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@jaredbusch said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@worden2 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@jaredbusch said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
Also, mods add tags.
Sorry about that.
Meh, it is not the most obvious thing in the world.
You can add tags by editing your initial post if you want, or a mod will get to it.
LOL - while not IT related - the use of tags in general seems to be a pretty new thing. I know they have been around just about forever, but their actual use is pretty light. A good thing to toss into an intro class somewhere.
I was studying taxonomic classification in 2003, it was a major topic at the time because folksonomy of the web was really the hot thing of the era and that's where a lot of research and thought in IT was going. Long before these kinds of communities were arising. Taxonomy and folksonomy would be good topics for an IT curriculum.
Interesting. I'll look into it. For instance, I'm teaching an intro class in Informatics this semester, and I can see where this would be a good topic.
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@worden2 said in Thoughts on IT education - the good, bad, and the ugly:
@scottalanmiller I want to get stuck in the weeds! The irony is that one of our staff IT managers was doing a tour of the campuses to see our setups (we maintain a separate network and MDF on all our "cyber center" campuses), and when I mentioned the push to allow for online (synchronous webcast, not asynchronous) classes in Server Admin - and the pushback from my peers - he was quick to point out that he had a team of six IT admins that NEVER touch the racks.
That's correct. A system admin would never "touch" a server. In the enterprise space or the modern anything space, the idea that a server would even be plausible to touch is absurd. Servers live in data centers managed by highly secured bench techs and system admins do the IT work. IT work has no hands on, bench has hands on. Lots of IT in the SMB still touches things because they can't afford to bring on bench staff for the rare hands on task, but that's IT doing side work. IT work is logical, not physical 99.9% of the time.
For "real" system admins, it is trivial to go an entire career and never see your servers (or maybe any server) in person.
