Open Source Hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?
-
@scottalanmiller said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
@matteo-nunziati said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Our "previous" system, the one we are going to phase out this winter, has been operated by an external supplier which used Xen + XO for this purpose -> quick readiness (less costs for the customer).
It is works, why replace it?
No I'm not replacing because of the current discussion. Totally unrelated. Presented here to explain why a lot of people in SMB with shortage of time and money do the XO way.
We replace because we change the ERP provider (at the time the provider was also the sysadmin) and we have gone a different route with HW and HV. Technically speacking I would had gone XenServer + XO from a tech perspective. Hyper-V has been the choice for other reasons.
OK Xen base is good.
Fact is: if a source is released but no one cares to keep it available outside of the company developing it, there is small chance it will be really useful for other than the company itself. So I do not see much value in its openness.
KVM could be a bit better but still lacks some tools.
Maybe I should re-state saying that yes core HV code is committed by enough etherogeneous sources that for (almost) sure it will survive any company both in KVM and Xen.
But most of the gear used to deploy on premise solutions in house (not vendor solutions) still is lacking. In Xen management tools are really limited: ok there is cmd line, but hey... seriously... SMB: really some SMB one-man-show writes tons of scripts from cmd line to manage everything?
KVM is ok at management level but backups are terrible. Xen could be better but most of the way incrementals are done is via XAPI, ASAP. Actually "bare metal" (maybe virtual metal?) restores would make it more viable as solution.
But why suggest them rather the Hyper-V if only the core is really developed in the open and not "just" released in the open? then you still need other tools - not open ones. At the end of the day: Yes we have open HV but don't know if we really need it.
(ok, I know we need but still I don't see the selling point other then I trust more open source then closed source. No one buys becaouse I have more trust: it is business not religion).
-
@matteo-nunziati said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
@scottalanmiller said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
@matteo-nunziati said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Our "previous" system, the one we are going to phase out this winter, has been operated by an external supplier which used Xen + XO for this purpose -> quick readiness (less costs for the customer).
It is works, why replace it?
HV. Technically speacking I would had gone XenServer + XO from a tech perspective. Hyper-V has been the choice for other reasons.OK Xen base is good.
KVM is ok at management level but backups are terrible. Xen could be better but most of the way incrementals are done is via XAPI, ASAP. Actually "bare metal" (maybe virtual metal?) restores would make it more viable as solution.
Why do you care that much about the hypervisor backup capability? In my experience, agent backup permits cross-environment restore and is at least as fast and often more space efficient than the hypervisor-based backup.
It don't depends on the underlying hypervisor and often is offered for free… Linux has relax-and-recover for baremetal restore and a lot of tools for standard backups, namely rsnapshot, urbackup, the glorious bacula, attic, obnam, borg, pcbackup etc. I know there are also many tools for windows, maybe not oss but free like veeam.
Sometimes I used and hybrid approach that has proven to be very effective: backup the whole VM with a dumb system like whole machine export once a month, and backup just the data.
This way I can restore the full-blown machine that usually change very little apart of the data, and push the fresh data after the restore.I found this strategy very resource and space effective, and it can be executed with open source or at least free tools in any environment that I'm aware of.
-
Then entire discussion is whacked. But this statement...
@matteo-nunziati said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Disclosure: I really like open source and looking at code for simplier projects really saved my day, just trying to remove some doubts of mine about KVM and Xen.
Reading code? how much of your employers time are your wasting with personal interest? If I caught an IT employee doing this they would be disciplined, and eventually terminated for continuing to do so.
Are you a trained software developer? Are you paid to inspect code? What the ever living hell do you think gives you the right to screw your employer over like that?
-
Just want to make sure I'm following this correctly. Is this the "Xen" that you guys are referring to ? https://www.xenproject.org/
If yes, what "GUI's" are available to manage Xen?
-
@FATeknollogee said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Just want to make sure I'm following this correctly. is this the "Xen" that you guys are referring to ? https://www.xenproject.org/
If yes, what "GUI's" are available to manage Xen?
Xen is the parent to XenServer. Generally when people speak of Xen they refer to XenServer. If they specify XAPI they are absolutely referring to XenServer as XenServer is the only system that uses the XAPI toolstack.
-
@FATeknollogee said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Just want to make sure I'm following this correctly. Is this the "Xen" that you guys are referring to ? https://www.xenproject.org/
If yes, what "GUI's" are available to manage Xen?
When using XenServer Xen Orchestra is the default
-
@DustinB3403 I am not talking about XenServer, only about Xen.
@scottalanmiller says Xen is viable in the SMB space, that's why I asked those questions -
@FATeknollogee said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
@DustinB3403 I am not talking about XenServer, only about Xen.
@scottalanmiller says Xen is viable in the SMB space, that's why I asked those questionsHe means XenServer, very very very few SMB's would be implementing a Xen installation.
-
@scottalanmiller said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
But you simply are not. Nothing binds you to it. I don't know what creates this perception, but Xen is totally viable without XS or XAPI. Just because recently people are talking about XO a lot so XAPI gets brought up doesn't tell us that Xen is only viable with it or that you are bound to it or anything like that.
@DustinB3403 I believe @scottalanmiller was talking about Xen not XenServer.
-
@FATeknollogee said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
@scottalanmiller said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
But you simply are not. Nothing binds you to it. I don't know what creates this perception, but Xen is totally viable without XS or XAPI. Just because recently people are talking about XO a lot so XAPI gets brought up doesn't tell us that Xen is only viable with it or that you are bound to it or anything like that.
@DustinB3403 I believe @scottalanmiller was talking about Xen not XS.
OK think of it like this.
Xen is a tool set that you can make do what you want, but to get it to do something, you have to assemble a room.
XenServer is the toolset, the room, and everything else.
Xen is used by Amazon and company, it is very powerful, but it isn't for the SMB space. Not like Hyper-V and XenServer are.
-
@JaredBusch said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Then entire discussion is whacked. But this statement...
@matteo-nunziati said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Disclosure: I really like open source and looking at code for simplier projects really saved my day, just trying to remove some doubts of mine about KVM and Xen.
Reading code? how much of your employers time are your wasting with personal interest? If I caught an IT employee doing this they would be disciplined, and eventually terminated for continuing to do so.
Are you a trained software developer? Are you paid to inspect code? What the ever living hell do you think gives you the right to screw your employer over like that?
10 years of code devel. I do this out of my working time. I inspect code in working time only when paid for it
-
@matteo-nunziati said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Fact is: if a source is released but no one cares to keep it available outside of the company developing it, there is small chance it will be really useful for other than the company itself. So I do not see much value in its openness.
Right, and we know that there is zero chance of this with Xen and KVM. Zero. So openness is 100% effective here for the one thing you consider to be its value (which is not what openness is about.) So in your skewed case of redefining the value, Xen and KVM meet your desires as perfectly as it is possible to do. The penultimate definition of open to your standards.
-
@DustinB3403 said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Xen is used by Amazon and company, it is very powerful, but it isn't for the SMB space. Not like Hyper-V and XenServer are.
Except vendors like Suse, HPE, Ubuntu and others provide full Xen stacks, too. Xen without XO comes commonly fully ready to go.
-
@DustinB3403 said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
@FATeknollogee said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
@DustinB3403 I am not talking about XenServer, only about Xen.
@scottalanmiller says Xen is viable in the SMB space, that's why I asked those questionsHe means XenServer, very very very few SMB's would be implementing a Xen installation.
Would... because they want XO. But he's talking about being stuck. If XO and XAPI died, they can just move. There is no binding.
-
@DustinB3403 said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Xen is the parent to XenServer. Generally when people speak of Xen they refer to XenServer.
Actually no, normally they do not. That's mostly unique to the SMB space and mostly to SW and it carried over here a bit.
-
@FATeknollogee said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Just want to make sure I'm following this correctly. Is this the "Xen" that you guys are referring to ? https://www.xenproject.org/
If yes, what "GUI's" are available to manage Xen?
XenCenter, Xen Orchestra, OpenStack, AWS, RS, and many more. No shortage of options
-
@JaredBusch said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Then entire discussion is whacked. But this statement...
@matteo-nunziati said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Disclosure: I really like open source and looking at code for simplier projects really saved my day, just trying to remove some doubts of mine about KVM and Xen.
Reading code? how much of your employers time are your wasting with personal interest? If I caught an IT employee doing this they would be disciplined, and eventually terminated for continuing to do so.
Are you a trained software developer? Are you paid to inspect code? What the ever living hell do you think gives you the right to screw your employer over like that?
A lot of employers encourage this, actually. But they limit the time used for it. Like 5% or something. Places like Google and Facebook encourage it for personal development (in the person growth sense) and to encourage loyalty.
-
@JaredBusch When you develop code using open souce libraries reading the code is usually a way to shorten devel time. Almost all libraries (both open or closed) I've worked with have holes in the docs. Reading the code in open souce saves thevday. Really.
But my point was: when a project grows really big and the major baker is corporate, is really possible that someone else will be able to fork and continue? And who? If it is a company which overrides the previous one is this not like MS selling hyper-v to another company?
-
@scottalanmiller said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
@FATeknollogee said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
Just want to make sure I'm following this correctly. Is this the "Xen" that you guys are referring to ? https://www.xenproject.org/
If yes, what "GUI's" are available to manage Xen?
XenCenter, Xen Orchestra, OpenStack, AWS, RS, and many more. No shortage of options
I didn't know you could use XenCenter to manage a Xen install? Why wouldn't this be a "popular" option?
Of the methods you listed above, which one is your favorite & why?
-
@matteo-nunziati said in open source hypervisors: do we really have them? do we really need them?:
But my point was: when a project grows really big and the major baker is corporate, is really possible that someone else will be able to fork and continue? And who?
Well it could be anyone. Look at TrueCrypt. It went away by surprise. People stepped up to take it over INSTANTLY.
Look at Unity, took about one day after being dropped by Canonical before a company was formed to take it over, and that's a garbage project that no one cares about.
KVM isn't like either of these, it's already not owned by RH but by Linux itself. Who takes care of Linux? RH, out of concern for people saying things like you are now, already went to great lengths to ensure that it's covered by other entities so that if RH goes under, literally nothing happens. Same with Xen but long, long ago. Xen isn't handled by Citrix at all, so the "concern" is already solved in that case.
Your concern is totally unfounded from a conceptual standpoint. I don't know how to make this clearer. There is NO risk to these projects like this, this is a "meteor" risk. Yes, a meteor could wipe out earth, but it is so unlikely that planning your risk panic around it is crazy. It's just not going to happen, and if it did the impact would be so great that your planning and worry would be pointless anyway.
And in the case of KVM, it's already split up with other huge entities, like IBM, who have a huge stake and can't let it go away. Same with Xen, IBM is deeply in bed with both. As is HPE, Scale, Canonical, Suse, Intel, etc.
Not only is your fear totally unfounded, your one current sponsor theory is unfounded. It's a false fear based on a false sense of ownership.
