The Motivations of Sales
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But I am saying I make recommendations and do NOT do that. I am NOT trying to oversell. That's not my life goal.
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One could make a pretty strong argument that it is unethical to expect a salesperson to act against his ethical obligations. The very idea that a salesperson should be expected to behave against what his job is to do is really inappropriate at best.
There is a party whose job it is to do that. Expecting the sales person do to that job for the buyer implies that the buyer is trying to get out of their ethical obligations.
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@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
@RestoronixSean said...
Similarly, the salesperson has their own responsibilities. A good salesperson has a duty to ask the right questions and fully understand the needs of their prospects. If they don’t align properly with your needs, then it should be no surprise that they didn’t close the sale.Yes, because understanding that makes sales easier.
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@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
But I am saying I make recommendations and do NOT do that. I am NOT trying to oversell. That's not my life goal.
Then you are acting either against your obligations as a sales person or against rationality. Because being a salesperson that does not oversell is kind of crazy. You are adding a sales process without adding value to anyone.
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@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
But I am saying I make recommendations and do NOT do that.
Then why sell at all? And what does your personal motivation really have to do with it? Are you a paid salesperson? Are you absolutely sure that you've never once, ever been motivated by profit? How do you explain taking the time to become a reseller if there is not profit motivation? This just doesn't make sense.
Bottom line, people get into sales to sell. If you are intentionally getting into sales but don't want to sell... we are just dealing with irrationality, right?
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@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
But I am saying I make recommendations and do NOT do that.
Do you get paid for those recommendations? How do people find out that you give recommendations?
Just because you are qualified to give recommendations, why do you feel that all sales people are? I feel like you are projecting a sense of "I'm a consultant that does sales" and putting your consulting hat onto your sales persona and projecting your consulting onto all sales people.
Do you think that the girl telling you that they have a deal on french fries and McD's is a "fry consultant" that consults on your dietary needs out of the goodness of her heart? She's 1) not a dietary consultant 2) not trained 3) knows nothing about you 4) sells a predictable thing regardless of who the customer is.
The idea that you feel that she is ethical required to be a food consultant with unlimited skill and knowledge and to apply that, without being paid, to work against the interests of her and her employer makes literally no sense. There is no ethical or logical reason for it to work that way.
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So what if the fry girl says ... oh by the way, instead of paying $3.49 for that fry you can get 2 for $4 which is a much better deal.
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What is really important, I think, is not just understanding that sales people are not consultants and have zero obligation to act as consultants (beyond the fact that logically they cannot) but that it is unfair and unethical to attempt to shove those obligations onto them.
Imagine if you did this to other people in life. What if you suddenly felt your priest was unethical for not changing your car's oil. What if you felt your neighbor was unethical for not mowing YOUR lawn. What if you felt the cashier at the grocery store was unethical for not hosting a dinner party and inviting you. Or if your cousin didn't come cook dinner for you every night.
Random obligations shoved on people for whom there is no reason, capability or ethics is totally unfair. It's not just asking for something extreme, it is essentially asking the impossible.
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@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
So what if the fry girl says ... oh by the way, instead of paying $3.49 for that fry you can get 2 for $4 which is a much better deal.
In your world, she'd be unethical because she didn't research if you needed more fries, if you like fries, if you have someone to share them with, how the extra $.51 would impact your personal finances, etc.
In my world, she's just a sales girl doing her job in the 100% ethical, social contract way. She didn't lie, she didn't force, she didn't deceive. She did sales.
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@scottalanmiller said in The Motivations of Sales:
@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
So what if the fry girl says ... oh by the way, instead of paying $3.49 for that fry you can get 2 for $4 which is a much better deal.
In your world, she'd be unethical because she didn't research if you needed more fries, if you like fries, if you have someone to share them with, how the extra $.51 would impact your personal finances, etc.
In my world, she's just a sales girl doing her job in the 100% ethical, social contract way. She didn't lie, she didn't force, she didn't deceive. She did sales.
In my world, she is AWESOME because she just helped me get more fries for a great price.
Seriously. I'd leave her a tip for something like that.
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@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
@RestoronixSean said
A good salesperson has a duty to ask the right questions and fully understand the needs of their prospects. If they don’t align properly with your needs, then it should be no surprise that they didn’t close the sale.
Right, and by selling them only what they need.
As a buyer, it’s important to note that meeting needs is only an obligation of sales if it encourages sales. If more sales are made by selling what the customer does not need, salespeople are obligated to let the customer buy.
How would this come up unless the sales person in unethically telling the client they need more than they really do?
I've actually had the discussion with salespeople in the past that their best customers have been other salespeople who understand the relationship, and the importance of clearly articulating their needs. They tend to get straight down to business. It simply saves time when the needs have been clearly defined. I’m not implying that one should try and intentionally screw someone over but ultimately it is up to the buyer to draw the line. If at the end of the transaction you feel a salesperson has overstepped or is pushing far past the needs without integrity then you might want to consider taking your business elsewhere. Salespeople should definitely be mindful, and customer centric, but you can’t put the buyers responsibility on them.
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@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
@scottalanmiller said in The Motivations of Sales:
@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
So what if the fry girl says ... oh by the way, instead of paying $3.49 for that fry you can get 2 for $4 which is a much better deal.
In your world, she'd be unethical because she didn't research if you needed more fries, if you like fries, if you have someone to share them with, how the extra $.51 would impact your personal finances, etc.
In my world, she's just a sales girl doing her job in the 100% ethical, social contract way. She didn't lie, she didn't force, she didn't deceive. She did sales.
In my world, she is AWESOME because she just helped me get more fries for a great price.
Seriously. I'd leave her a tip for something like that.
But she didn't do what you feel is required of a sales person. She upsild you when you didn't need it. That's like your storage vendor overselling you capacity. Sure that extra 20TB didn't do you any good. It just wasted your money. But it might feel good after the sale anyway.
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@scottalanmiller said
But she didn't do what you feel is required of a sales person. She upsild you when you didn't need it. That's like your storage vendor overselling you capacity. Sure that extra 20TB didn't do you any good. It just wasted your money. But it might feel good after the sale anyway.
She did exactly what I like.
Any time anyone will sell me something else for a penny or close to fee, I'll take it. That a great salesperson in my mind. Giving me more than I originally wanted for the same cost of free.
It's like when I was a cashier and used to give customers advice about coupons they may have missed. Going the extra mile to make the customer/client happy and save them money. It's a win win for everyone.
The salesperson who screws over the customer loses that customer.
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@scottalanmiller said in The Motivations of Sales:
Do you think that the girl telling you that they have a deal on french fries and McD's is a "fry consultant" that consults on your dietary needs out of the goodness of her heart? She's 1) not a dietary consultant 2) not trained 3) knows nothing about you 4) sells a predictable thing regardless of who the customer is.
I guess the difference here is that the fry girl isn't saying to me... I think you need this, I think this will solve your problem.
The key word think instills a feeling in the buyer that seller is working for the buyer. This is the intentional falseness/trick/social engineering that sales employ to throw the super off their game and start acting with emotion instead of logic.
Of course we know this works because sales person jobs exist and flourish.
The social contract of people not trying to take advantage of each other is what is broken.
The inherent trust that the average person isn't out to screw their fellow man.
Of course it's this ridiculous inherent trust is what allows people to get scammed, the reason why 'normals' (non IT people) don't make considerations about computer security and a whole host of other things. -
@scottalanmiller said in The Motivations of Sales:
@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
So what if the fry girl says ... oh by the way, instead of paying $3.49 for that fry you can get 2 for $4 which is a much better deal.
In your world, she'd be unethical because she didn't research if you needed more fries, if you like fries, if you have someone to share them with, how the extra $.51 would impact your personal finances, etc.
In my world, she's just a sales girl doing her job in the 100% ethical, social contract way. She didn't lie, she didn't force, she didn't deceive. She did sales.
Also, in this example it's likely that the company is making a bit more money from this sale because the cost of the fries is so low.
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@Dashrender said in The Motivations of Sales:
@scottalanmiller said in The Motivations of Sales:
@BRRABill said in The Motivations of Sales:
So what if the fry girl says ... oh by the way, instead of paying $3.49 for that fry you can get 2 for $4 which is a much better deal.
In your world, she'd be unethical because she didn't research if you needed more fries, if you like fries, if you have someone to share them with, how the extra $.51 would impact your personal finances, etc.
In my world, she's just a sales girl doing her job in the 100% ethical, social contract way. She didn't lie, she didn't force, she didn't deceive. She did sales.
Also, in this example it's likely that the company is making a bit more money from this sale because the cost of the fries is so low.
Right, but in a real world example....
The Sausage McMuffin with egg right now is $3.59 for one or $4 for two.
Is McD's making a little more money off me? Sure. Could have I saved 40 odd cents and only bought one? Sure. But I can tell you I am much happier buying 2 at $4.
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We've had this discussion many times here at ML. I've also discussed it offline with many people from ML.
@scottalanmiller says "trust" has nothing to do with it, or twists the word to use it against me "you should trust they will oversell you"
I think there is absolutely trust.
An example. I take my car in to the mechanic because the brakes have been squeaking. He looks at the car and says it needs new pads AND rotors. OK, so I have a choice here. Is he overselling me? Does it really not need anything at all? Or maybe just the pads. Or maybe the rotors can be machined. The point is ... how would you know, unless you already knew a lot about brakes?
Same thing with a doctor. If I go to the doctor for something, I am going to trust he is going to help me get better. Not prescribe me something that will kill me just so it gets him a free trip. (Now does that happen? I am sure.)
The point is, through experience and history, I have pre-vetted the "sales" people I use. Whether it's the CDW rep, the local mechanic, or my doctor.
If I have gone to them 19 times before, and they've never done anything sketchy once, why would they pick this one time to screw me over? Have they been just been laying in the weeds, giving me fair prices and services just waiting for the one time they can really stick it to me for another $100? Unlikely.
I think people like myself, who are in the business of recommending only what a client needs (from an extensive history of seeing the same situation over and over again) and ONLY what they need for that particular thing do exist. Just like a mechanic. Is he recommending brand X brakes because he stands to make the most off of them? Or because he's put on 1000 brakes and those are the ones that work the best. Could they possibly fare better by hiring a consultant to spend hours researching things to ultimately recommend the same thing because it's the right recommendation 99% of the time? Sure, but why? Could I take my car from the mechanic, drive it to another place, spend $120 in a diagnosis fee, and waste an entire day? Sure! But why ... just trust that the guy I've been using for 10 years really does believe I need new pads and rotors?
You are overthinking the whole recommendation phase of this. If someone says to me "hey what's a good laptop for my kid" I don't need to spend 10 hours researching it. Is there possibly a better, researched answer a paid consultant would give them? Maybe. But is it worth paying the money when 99% of the time what I tell them is going to be perfect? IMO, no way.
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@Breffni-Potter Cool picture, but what does it have to do with the conversation?
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@DustinB3403 said in The Motivations of Sales:
@Breffni-Potter Cool picture, but what does it have to do with the conversation?
Storm in a tea cup.
