Time to gut the network - thoughts?
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Well then I have to assume that the continued chorus line of "we recommend you put the VOIP phones on their own VLAN for QoS" is showing that they are uneducated in modern networking, no?
This falls into the same general category of "The average of any market is poor. The average business will fail. The average system deployment is expensive, slow and insecure. The average advice is just a sales pitch, not good advice. And on, and on."
Nothing should ever be considered "good" because it is popular. If anything, the popularity of an idea, product or concept should put it under more scrutiny, not less.
Now I'm just playing devil's advocate - how is a normal business person suppose to know that if their consultant suggest Cisco that they should really be scrutinizing that recommendation even more? They're probably lucky if they know the name Cisco (OK not really, but you get my point - he's a Shoe store owner, he doesn't know squat about computers).
This is SO easy. Go ask your mother if she has heard of Cisco or of Ubiquiti Networks.
If she's heard of Cisco, you know that you should watch out for people suggesting it. It's basically that easy. I'm not kidding. Once you advertise to the public for IT needs, you are going after this exactly problem.
LOL - so this life lesson you're talking about I think is something almost no one actually either A) understands, B) chooses to ignore or C) hasn't been taught or taken the time to understand.
Well this PARTICULAR life lesson is about IT. Chevy advertises to your mom because your mom buys cars. That's fine. Cisco advertises to your mom because it wants your mom to question the IT guy at work anytime something fails and ask if it's because they didn't buy Cisco. See the difference? Cisco wants the non-IT people (is your mom actually in IT?) to push their products based on things other than the business needs.
OK I see where you're going with this, but while I could care less about some random employee asking me about this, it is definitely a pain in the ass when your boss/CEO is asking this. I guess if push beyond just asking you to explain your reasoning to go with vendor A over vendor B, then they are showing that they don't trust you, and then at that point, why do they have you?
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If someone presents you with a recommendation that is so obviously a copy of what general marketing or bad practice suggests you would get when getting screwed,
This is what I'm talking about. These people don't know what bad practice is or what general marketing is. You still haven't supplied how these people are supposed to find what bad practices are.
Everyone knows what general marketing is. Everyone. Even little kids.
No they don't. And you still haven't showed how these people are supposed to find what bad practices are.
I did... marketing. If they've heard of it, they should be wary of it. I'm just repeating myself here.
That's obviously not true. Somehow some companies that market are exempt but not others.
Well this PARTICULAR life lesson is about IT. Chevy advertises to your mom because your mom buys cars. That's fine. Cisco advertises to your mom because it wants your mom to question the IT guy at work anytime something fails and ask if it's because they didn't buy Cisco
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. You could make the exact same argument about Chevy. Cisco markets because they want people to buy their stuff.
Right, typical businesses will do things poorly. So assume that typical businesses will always be bad. So don't be typical if you are trying to do well.
And using this statement, Fortune 100's are not typical. Mose use Cisco gear, so by that logic you should use Cisco.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Well then I have to assume that the continued chorus line of "we recommend you put the VOIP phones on their own VLAN for QoS" is showing that they are uneducated in modern networking, no?
This falls into the same general category of "The average of any market is poor. The average business will fail. The average system deployment is expensive, slow and insecure. The average advice is just a sales pitch, not good advice. And on, and on."
Nothing should ever be considered "good" because it is popular. If anything, the popularity of an idea, product or concept should put it under more scrutiny, not less.
Now I'm just playing devil's advocate - how is a normal business person suppose to know that if their consultant suggest Cisco that they should really be scrutinizing that recommendation even more? They're probably lucky if they know the name Cisco (OK not really, but you get my point - he's a Shoe store owner, he doesn't know squat about computers).
This is SO easy. Go ask your mother if she has heard of Cisco or of Ubiquiti Networks.
If she's heard of Cisco, you know that you should watch out for people suggesting it. It's basically that easy. I'm not kidding. Once you advertise to the public for IT needs, you are going after this exactly problem.
LOL - so this life lesson you're talking about I think is something almost no one actually either A) understands, B) chooses to ignore or C) hasn't been taught or taken the time to understand.
Well this PARTICULAR life lesson is about IT. Chevy advertises to your mom because your mom buys cars. That's fine. Cisco advertises to your mom because it wants your mom to question the IT guy at work anytime something fails and ask if it's because they didn't buy Cisco. See the difference? Cisco wants the non-IT people (is your mom actually in IT?) to push their products based on things other than the business needs.
OK I see where you're going with this, but while I could care less about some random employee asking me about this, it is definitely a pain in the ass when your boss/CEO is asking this. I guess if push beyond just asking you to explain your reasoning to go with vendor A over vendor B, then they are showing that they don't trust you, and then at that point, why do they have you?
Right, they are trying to get your CEO to push for a solution that they have heard of. Or, in many cases, to get the IT guy to accept the advice of someone based at least partially around the apparently popularity of that solution. POssibly because they simply feel this will make it easier to sell to their boss (which implies that that IT person doesn't respect their boss.)
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
I did... marketing. If they've heard of it, they should be wary of it. I'm just repeating myself here.
That's obviously not true. Somehow some companies that market are exempt but not others.
Why?
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. You could make the exact same argument about Chevy. Cisco markets because they want people to buy their stuff.
Chevy advertises to its buyers. Cisco advertises to the people that oversee the buyers.
One is trying to influence the "expert". The other is trying to undermine the "expert". Very different.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If someone presents you with a recommendation that is so obviously a copy of what general marketing or bad practice suggests you would get when getting screwed,
This is what I'm talking about. These people don't know what bad practice is or what general marketing is. You still haven't supplied how these people are supposed to find what bad practices are.
again - EXACTLY.
Do us both a favor and use a non technical example of a product that paid for advice person would possibly give us an advice of a product that we should instantly question if this guy really is a consultant or in reality a VAR, etc.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Right, typical businesses will do things poorly. So assume that typical businesses will always be bad. So don't be typical if you are trying to do well.
And using this statement, Fortune 100's are not typical. Mose use Cisco gear, so by that logic you should use Cisco.
Do they use Cisco gear "more" than non-Fortune 100s? I think not. You'll find more alternatives in the Fortune 100 than elsewhere. It's actually an incredible diverse field. And mimicking anyone is not suggested by being wary of what the group think is. You are making disconnected leaps from what I said. One does not lead to the other.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If someone presents you with a recommendation that is so obviously a copy of what general marketing or bad practice suggests you would get when getting screwed,
This is what I'm talking about. These people don't know what bad practice is or what general marketing is. You still haven't supplied how these people are supposed to find what bad practices are.
again - EXACTLY.
Do us both a favor and use a non technical example of a product that paid for advice person would possibly give us an advice of a product that we should instantly question if this guy really is a consultant or in reality a VAR, etc.
When do you pay for non-technical advice?
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Oh I know....
Pharmaceutical ads. YOu could call doctors "non-technical." I guess. You should definitely question the motives of a doctor or pharmacist if they are pushing you to take a drug that you see advertised a lot. In no way does that mean that you don't take it or anything like that. It simply means that it is a case where getting a second opinion is more important than normal.
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And almost everyone I know does the above. They call their pharmacist or another doctor and double check prescription advice because there is such a high likelihood of mistakes or outright scams.
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I've seen it a lot in the audiophile community. Anything with lots of advertising is generally the worst products. But lots of VARs push them because they are easier to sell and have higher mark up. You rarely "pay" for audio advice, but if you do, you generally expect to get insider knowledge, not just ads regurgitated.
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Basically the nature of advice is that you only get it for technical things. Basically everything that we buy is technical or purely aesthetic.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. You could make the exact same argument about Chevy. Cisco markets because they want people to buy their stuff.
Chevy advertises to its buyers. Cisco advertises to the people that oversee the buyers.
One is trying to influence the "expert". The other is trying to undermine the "expert". Very different.
No, a lot of SMBs, the IT person does the buying. It's not their money, but they are the ones doing the purchasing.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
I did... marketing. If they've heard of it, they should be wary of it. I'm just repeating myself here.
Wow, that's it huh, the long and the short. If you're looking for advice on a product, and the person you're paying to give you advice suggests something you've heard of before, you should scrutinize that person to ensure they are making that recommendation for the right reasons. WOW - that seems very anti advertising if absolutely nothing else. This almost seems vendetta like.
Of course the reality of any suggestions should be - Please tell me why you choose this vendor/product line and the next one or two alternatives, and why this one was the one you picked to recommend to me.
But you're not saying that - instead you started by saying that we should all know that if we get a recommendation for any product that we've ever seen an ad for, we have to instantly be suspicious of that recommendation. I think you're taking the wrong approach here.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. You could make the exact same argument about Chevy. Cisco markets because they want people to buy their stuff.
Chevy advertises to its buyers. Cisco advertises to the people that oversee the buyers.
One is trying to influence the "expert". The other is trying to undermine the "expert". Very different.
No, a lot of SMBs, the IT person does the buying. It's not their money, but they are the ones doing the purchasing.
I've never seen SMB focused advertising for these products. Only general. Or very little to the point of being less than the general case (I see less Cisco on ML or SW than in general advertising.)
But the same deal applies, if they are trying to influence your acceptance with ads, you should be automatically more wary, rather than less. Selling based on marketing rather than on merits. Nothing wrong with marketing, but it should always trigger a wariness reaction mentally. Things to look out for.
But that doesn't matter, they ALSO advertise to "everyone" and that is what matters. That they also advertise to the SMB IT guy, maybe, is additional and does not remove the need to be diligent.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
I did... marketing. If they've heard of it, they should be wary of it. I'm just repeating myself here.
Wow, that's it huh, the long and the short.
Yes, essentially. That's the entire point. That marketing makes it easier to take advantage of most people. So learn to be wary of being set up for that.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If you're looking for advice on a product, and the person you're paying to give you advice suggests something you've heard of before, you should scrutinize that person to ensure they are making that recommendation for the right reasons. WOW - that seems very anti advertising if absolutely nothing else. This almost seems vendetta like.
That's an odd reaction to feel. Money is spent to influence you, someone leverages that influence, you don't feel that you should scrutinize if you are being taken advantage of?
That you both react to this like this makes me feel like I've said something wrong. This is so obvious to me I'm unclear why you question it. I must be missing something.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If someone presents you with a recommendation that is so obviously a copy of what general marketing or bad practice suggests you would get when getting screwed,
This is what I'm talking about. These people don't know what bad practice is or what general marketing is. You still haven't supplied how these people are supposed to find what bad practices are.
again - EXACTLY.
Do us both a favor and use a non technical example of a product that paid for advice person would possibly give us an advice of a product that we should instantly question if this guy really is a consultant or in reality a VAR, etc.
When do you pay for non-technical advice?
When you pay a broker for stock tips. Actually I was thinking of this earlier - an old client of mine told me they hired a business consulting company because their business wasn't doing well. The consulting company helped them change business practices not related to IT that made their business better/grow.
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Of course the reality of any suggestions should be - Please tell me why you choose this vendor/product line and the next one or two alternatives, and why this one was the one you picked to recommend to me.
Obviously if you question absolutely everything, you don't skip questioning the most likely bad case. BUT it's unreasonable to question every single thing, that's a good way to push people over the edge and to raise costs. THat's why we take the time to highlight cases where we should be more questioning, rather than less or even keel. What does the pattern for being taken advantage of look like?
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. You could make the exact same argument about Chevy. Cisco markets because they want people to buy their stuff.
Chevy advertises to its buyers. Cisco advertises to the people that oversee the buyers.
One is trying to influence the "expert". The other is trying to undermine the "expert". Very different.
No, a lot of SMBs, the IT person does the buying. It's not their money, but they are the ones doing the purchasing.
I've never seen SMB focused advertising for these products. Only general. Or very little to the point of being less than the general case (I see less Cisco on ML or SW than in general advertising.)
But the same deal applies, if they are trying to influence your acceptance with ads, you should be automatically more wary, rather than less. Selling based on marketing rather than on merits. Nothing wrong with marketing, but it should always trigger a wariness reaction mentally. Things to look out for.
But that doesn't matter, they ALSO advertise to "everyone" and that is what matters. That they also advertise to the SMB IT guy, maybe, is additional and does not remove the need to be diligent.
But every company advertises. If someone came in and recommended Ubiquiti, I should question it because I've seen their ads? So in your mind the perfect company would not market at all because of this statement
but it should always trigger a wariness reaction mentally. Things to look out for.
Plus there are so many other parts of companies like Cisco. They sell little 8 port unmanaged switches. So because you've seen advertisements for products even like that you should be wary?
