Time to gut the network - thoughts?
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Of course the reality of any suggestions should be - Please tell me why you choose this vendor/product line and the next one or two alternatives, and why this one was the one you picked to recommend to me.
Obviously if you question absolutely everything, you don't skip questioning the most likely bad case. BUT it's unreasonable to question every single thing, that's a good way to push people over the edge and to raise costs. THat's why we take the time to highlight cases where we should be more questioning, rather than less or even keel. What does the pattern for being taken advantage of look like?
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. You could make the exact same argument about Chevy. Cisco markets because they want people to buy their stuff.
Chevy advertises to its buyers. Cisco advertises to the people that oversee the buyers.
One is trying to influence the "expert". The other is trying to undermine the "expert". Very different.
No, a lot of SMBs, the IT person does the buying. It's not their money, but they are the ones doing the purchasing.
I've never seen SMB focused advertising for these products. Only general. Or very little to the point of being less than the general case (I see less Cisco on ML or SW than in general advertising.)
But the same deal applies, if they are trying to influence your acceptance with ads, you should be automatically more wary, rather than less. Selling based on marketing rather than on merits. Nothing wrong with marketing, but it should always trigger a wariness reaction mentally. Things to look out for.
But that doesn't matter, they ALSO advertise to "everyone" and that is what matters. That they also advertise to the SMB IT guy, maybe, is additional and does not remove the need to be diligent.
But every company advertises. If someone came in and recommended Ubiquiti, I should question it because I've seen their ads? So in your mind the perfect company would not market at all because of this statement
but it should always trigger a wariness reaction mentally. Things to look out for.
Plus there are so many other parts of companies like Cisco. They sell little 8 port unmanaged switches. So because you've seen advertisements for products even like that you should be wary?
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
But you're not saying that - instead you started by saying that we should all know that if we get a recommendation for any product that we've ever seen an ad for, we have to instantly be suspicious of that recommendation. I think you're taking the wrong approach here.
I'd be very interested to hear why you feel there is room to not scrutinize in that obviously "red flagged" case?
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
But every company advertises. If someone came in and recommended Ubiquiti, I should question it because I've seen their ads?
If you are seeing non-IT ads, definitely.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
And almost everyone I know does the above. They call their pharmacist or another doctor and double check prescription advice because there is such a high likelihood of mistakes or outright scams.
Wow, I know of NO one who does this, but I say that with the understanding that I don't talk to anyone about the medical needs with the exception of my wife. And I know the best she's going to do when prescribed a new drug is ask the pharmacist if there are any interactions to worry about, but she would never question if it's the right thing.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
So in your mind the perfect company would not market at all because of this statement
How did you get this from anything I said?
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If you're looking for advice on a product, and the person you're paying to give you advice suggests something you've heard of before, you should scrutinize that person to ensure they are making that recommendation for the right reasons. WOW - that seems very anti advertising if absolutely nothing else. This almost seems vendetta like.
That's an odd reaction to feel. Money is spent to influence you, someone leverages that influence, you don't feel that you should scrutinize if you are being taken advantage of?
That you both react to this like this makes me feel like I've said something wrong. This is so obvious to me I'm unclear why you question it. I must be missing something.
It's not. This whole thread is you expecting people to listen to you. You just said "this is so obvious to me I'm unclear why you question it."
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@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
And almost everyone I know does the above. They call their pharmacist or another doctor and double check prescription advice because there is such a high likelihood of mistakes or outright scams.
Wow, I know of NO one who does this, but I say that with the understanding that I don't talk to anyone about the medical needs with the exception of my wife. And I know the best she's going to do when prescribed a new drug is ask the pharmacist if there are any interactions to worry about, but she would never question if it's the right thing.
Right, most people are not good at business decision making or getting advice. And the average advisor takes advantage of this. Hence why I am so adamant about teaching how to get good advice.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
So in your mind the perfect company would not market at all because of this statement
How did you get this from anything I said?
Nothing wrong with marketing, but it should always trigger a wariness reaction mentally. Things to look out for.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If you're looking for advice on a product, and the person you're paying to give you advice suggests something you've heard of before, you should scrutinize that person to ensure they are making that recommendation for the right reasons. WOW - that seems very anti advertising if absolutely nothing else. This almost seems vendetta like.
That's an odd reaction to feel. Money is spent to influence you, someone leverages that influence, you don't feel that you should scrutinize if you are being taken advantage of?
That you both react to this like this makes me feel like I've said something wrong. This is so obvious to me I'm unclear why you question it. I must be missing something.
It's not. This whole thread is you expecting people to listen to you. You just said "this is so obvious to me I'm unclear why you question it."
It is, I'm literally unclear why it is being questioned? I'm uncertain of what the counterargument is.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
But every company advertises. If someone came in and recommended Ubiquiti, I should question it because I've seen their ads?
If you are seeing non-IT ads, definitely.
What non-IT ads have you ever seen from Cisco?
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. You could make the exact same argument about Chevy. Cisco markets because they want people to buy their stuff.
Chevy advertises to its buyers. Cisco advertises to the people that oversee the buyers.
One is trying to influence the "expert". The other is trying to undermine the "expert". Very different.
No, a lot of SMBs, the IT person does the buying. It's not their money, but they are the ones doing the purchasing.
I suppose the expert that Cisco would be undermining would be the consultant that the IT person hired to give them advise... i.e. if the consultant comes back with a non Cisco solution, according to scott, the typical IT person would question if the recommendation is good because it's not Cisco.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
So in your mind the perfect company would not market at all because of this statement
How did you get this from anything I said?
Nothing wrong with marketing, but it should always trigger a wariness reaction mentally. Things to look out for.
Right. Which in no way leads you to what you said. You are making an illogical leap. That the buyer should be wary of advice says literally nothing about the company.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If you're looking for advice on a product, and the person you're paying to give you advice suggests something you've heard of before, you should scrutinize that person to ensure they are making that recommendation for the right reasons. WOW - that seems very anti advertising if absolutely nothing else. This almost seems vendetta like.
That's an odd reaction to feel. Money is spent to influence you, someone leverages that influence, you don't feel that you should scrutinize if you are being taken advantage of?
That you both react to this like this makes me feel like I've said something wrong. This is so obvious to me I'm unclear why you question it. I must be missing something.
It's not. This whole thread is you expecting people to listen to you. You just said "this is so obvious to me I'm unclear why you question it."
It is, I'm literally unclear why it is being questioned? I'm uncertain of what the counterargument is.
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If you're looking for advice on a product, and the person you're paying to give you advice suggests something you've heard of before, you should scrutinize that person to ensure they are making that recommendation for the right reasons. WOW - that seems very anti advertising if absolutely nothing else. This almost seems vendetta like.
That's an odd reaction to feel. Money is spent to influence you, someone leverages that influence, you don't feel that you should scrutinize if you are being taken advantage of?
That you both react to this like this makes me feel like I've said something wrong. This is so obvious to me I'm unclear why you question it. I must be missing something.
It's not. This whole thread is you expecting people to listen to you. You just said "this is so obvious to me I'm unclear why you question it."
It is, I'm literally unclear why it is being questioned? I'm uncertain of what the counterargument is.
You're expecting people to take your advice without being questioned. The advice you are giving is to question people who give you advice.
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
So in your mind the perfect company would not market at all because of this statement
How did you get this from anything I said?
Nothing wrong with marketing, but it should always trigger a wariness reaction mentally. Things to look out for.
Right. Which in no way leads you to what you said. You are making an illogical leap. That the buyer should be wary of advice says literally nothing about the company.
It does. If the company uses marketing, you should be wary. So if they don't market, you don't need to be wary.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
Plus there are so many other parts of companies like Cisco. They sell little 8 port unmanaged switches. So because you've seen advertisements for products even like that you should be wary?
That does make it a little more complicated. Cisco is kind of unique there and it is a pretty recent thing. Although I think we all know that they took a loss there to do exactly what we are talking about, but it back fired because technical people saw them as a consumer joke. So they sold that off.
Do they still sell that consumer stuff, though? I thought that that ended long ago.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
So in your mind the perfect company would not market at all because of this statement
How did you get this from anything I said?
Nothing wrong with marketing, but it should always trigger a wariness reaction mentally. Things to look out for.
Right. Which in no way leads you to what you said. You are making an illogical leap. That the buyer should be wary of advice says literally nothing about the company.
It does. If the company uses marketing, you should be wary. So if they don't market, you don't need to be wary.
Yes exactly, you should be wary. Wary of advise is totally different than a company being bad. UNrelated. 100%
And I NEVER suggested that you stop being wary when they don't advertise.
See what I mean? I have no idea where these statements come from. Am I saying something wrong? I can't find anything I've said that would even remotely suggest these thoughts.
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
So if they don't market, you don't need to be wary.
What is the quote that led you to think that I even implied this?
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@stacksofplates said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
You're expecting people to take your advice without being questioned. The advice you are giving is to question people who give you advice.
Sure, but question it, don't twist it. I gave advice that only requires logic to know why it makes sense. It's clear that there can be no financial motivation behind it as I lose money or come out even on it as a consultant. And I don't advertise the advice. I'm not saying not to question it, but it's not being questioned, is it? Just twisted?
What part of what I said do you question? That advertising can make people emotionally susceptible to suggestion? That advisor will leverage that for personal gain? That we should be aware of these facts and prepare ourselves to look for this common scenario?
Which part are you questioning specifically?
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@scottalanmiller said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Time to gut the network - thoughts?:
If you're looking for advice on a product, and the person you're paying to give you advice suggests something you've heard of before, you should scrutinize that person to ensure they are making that recommendation for the right reasons. WOW - that seems very anti advertising if absolutely nothing else. This almost seems vendetta like.
That's an odd reaction to feel. Money is spent to influence you, someone leverages that influence, you don't feel that you should scrutinize if you are being taken advantage of?
That you both react to this like this makes me feel like I've said something wrong. This is so obvious to me I'm unclear why you question it. I must be missing something.
The part that I think we both have a problem with is that general people, that includes the crappy IT person and the NORMAL SMB business owner (as you said, most SMBs fail, and well just one look at SW shows how many not great IT people there are out there). These are the normals - the expected situation. I would NEVER expect them to question a recommendation because it matches ads on TV, again, because they are normals and don't adhere to good business practices. When you run into that 5% who aren't normal and who do realize that if it's advertised you should be wary, it's pretty easy for you to switch gears to deal with those people.
But, if you're dealing with normals... they would never question it.
