I can't even
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
No, because backups are cold. Replication is warm. Does a warm backup of an OS count as an OSE that needs licensed?
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
No, because backups are cold. Replication is warm. Does a warm backup of an OS count as an OSE that needs licensed?
Unitrends can be warm backups from that POV.
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@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
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Can we create a post regarding the Microsoft Licensing to a Topic so we don't derail this whole thread more? Just a recommendation.
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
So am I to understand that if I have VEEAM set up to replicate I need a license for both the Production and the replicated backup?
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Now we need to know what MS classifies as replication - is an hourly backup to Unitrends considered replication - especially in light of the fact that the VM can be started on the Unitrends box in case of DR?
This definition of warm definitely tells us that continuous backup is not required to be consider warm - only periodical.
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@wls-itguy said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
So am I to understand that if I have VEEAM set up to replicate I need a license for both the Production and the replicated backup?
That is the point of this discussion.
Which at this point should really be ripped out of the I can't even thread and put in it's own. -
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
The thing is this... that document is from 2004 and is not in the context of Hyper-V or VM replication. But I don't see anything else to go by, because everything else is in the context of the Software Assurance "disaster recovery" benefit.
All we can do is is assume, because nothing is clear. Is VM replication considered a warm backup? Is it an OSE? Is it an OSE that needs licensed?
I'm right in the middle of it all. I honestly don't care, because I either replicate SA-binded VMs, or to a DC hypervisor... so I'm covered by licensing anyways. But in the weird cases where people aren't using appropriate licensing... who knows.
I can side with Scott easily, and i can also not side with Scott easily. It depends on how you view it all. Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
At this point I do consider it a cold backup file. And therefore requires no more licensing than a backup does, i.e. no SA or other Windows Server Licensing. Now, once you turn it on, all bets are off. To turn it on, you need SA for DR benefits.
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
At this point I do consider it a cold backup file. And therefore requires no more licensing than a backup does, i.e. no SA or other Windows Server Licensing. Now, once you turn it on, all bets are off. To turn it on, you need SA for DR benefits.
That's how I used to think of it too, even though it doesn't matter in my current environment.
But after reading all of the information out there from reputable sources saying otherwise, I started looking at it differently.
Mainly this part: "If you don't need any additional licensing for VM replication, then why is it part of a benefit of Software Assurance in any context?"... I can see having the ability to "run" the replica as part of it... and another being an OSE is an "Instance means an image of software that is created by executing the software’s setup or install procedure or by duplicating an existing Instance."
Microsoft's own documentation is full of contradiction and vagueness.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
At this point I do consider it a cold backup file. And therefore requires no more licensing than a backup does, i.e. no SA or other Windows Server Licensing. Now, once you turn it on, all bets are off. To turn it on, you need SA for DR benefits.
That's how I used to think of it too, even though it doesn't matter in my current environment.
But after reading all of the information out there from reputable sources saying otherwise, I started looking at it differently.
Mainly this part: "If you don't need any additional licensing for VM replication, then why is it part of a benefit of Software Assurance in any context?"... I can see having the ability to "run" the replica as part of it... and another being an OSE is an "Instance means an image of software that is created by executing the software’s setup or install procedure or by duplicating an existing Instance."
Microsoft's own documentation is full of contradiction and vagueness.
Right but by those definitions, any backup is an image of an instance.
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
At this point I do consider it a cold backup file. And therefore requires no more licensing than a backup does, i.e. no SA or other Windows Server Licensing. Now, once you turn it on, all bets are off. To turn it on, you need SA for DR benefits.
That's how I used to think of it too, even though it doesn't matter in my current environment.
But after reading all of the information out there from reputable sources saying otherwise, I started looking at it differently.
Mainly this part: "If you don't need any additional licensing for VM replication, then why is it part of a benefit of Software Assurance in any context?"... I can see having the ability to "run" the replica as part of it... and another being an OSE is an "Instance means an image of software that is created by executing the software’s setup or install procedure or by duplicating an existing Instance."
Microsoft's own documentation is full of contradiction and vagueness.
Right but by those definitions, any backup is an image of an instance.
Yeah, which doesn't make sense, and is exactly my point.
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
At this point I do consider it a cold backup file. And therefore requires no more licensing than a backup does, i.e. no SA or other Windows Server Licensing. Now, once you turn it on, all bets are off. To turn it on, you need SA for DR benefits.
That's how I used to think of it too, even though it doesn't matter in my current environment.
But after reading all of the information out there from reputable sources saying otherwise, I started looking at it differently.
Mainly this part: "If you don't need any additional licensing for VM replication, then why is it part of a benefit of Software Assurance in any context?"... I can see having the ability to "run" the replica as part of it... and another being an OSE is an "Instance means an image of software that is created by executing the software’s setup or install procedure or by duplicating an existing Instance."
Microsoft's own documentation is full of contradiction and vagueness.
Right but by those definitions, any backup is an image of an instance.
By ANY definition, backups are an image. At least image based backups. Which is important, because relicas aren't special snowflakes, they are normal and fall under normal licensing rules making them very easy to deal with.
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
That's not quite true. I KNOW that the replica itself does not need a license, that has never once been questioned. It is if the feature to DO the replication might need a license. But that, too, appears to have been a myth.
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@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
@scottalanmiller please provide the link to your source document for 2016 as well as the page number you are referencing. Otherwise this is all speculation on your part. I mean I believe you found the correct document and it is a real quote, but it needs to verifiable.
It was page 11.
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
There is no DR until that time, there is no intent until that time, there is no reason to have spent money on a license until that time.
I think this is where a lot of people disagree with you - using Hyper-V replication to replicate a VM to another Hyper-V host, instead of using backup software to backup to dumb storage, to most in implying intent to spin up the replica in case of DR.
They can disagree, but it requires lying. It doesn't imply that intent and claiming that you can even know that intent is outright deception.
That's like saying buying a gun, just buying it, means you intend to murder someone. Sure, that's the expected use case of buying a gun, but unless you can prove that no one has ever intended to use it for any other purpose, you cannot make such a claim.
It's a conceptually false type of claim - to claim one intent that isn't even implied by the action.
Using those mechanisms purely for backup is a perfectly acceptable, and used, technique. And one I literally worked on three days ago! This isn't theory, this is real world.
So while people may claim to disagree here, they are being malicious to do so. It's not a claim that someone can ethically make.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
So in the Windows 2016 documents for licensing, this is the sole reference to replica (except storage replica, which is a different thing)...
Notice that it only gets mentioned under "Disaster recovery rights", DR is a term used for running a system on other hardware after the initial has failed. So the context of this license portion is assuming DR is used - not something that applies to what we are discussing.
Microsoft clearly refers to the replica as a backup here, as well.
The entire section is about temporarily running a backup instance in a physical or virtual OSE. That's explicitly what we said we were NOT doing when discussing this.
So, as you can see, there is absolutely nothing in the Windows 2016 Licensing document about replicas as replicas, only replicas that have been used to create running systems on separate hardware. The part that you quoted earlier was this very portion, but lacking the context of the list leaving out the part that this portion only applies once you tried to run the replica - which is the entire crux of the issue. Every link that you provided all word their licensing beliefs based on the assumption that the replica will be used to fire up a DR instance - but this is not the primarily use of replicas and it cannot be assumed.
Right, I specifically mentioned that part as pertaining solely for the "Disaster Recovery" benefit of SA. We're on teh same page there.
Okay, but then what's there to discuss? The SA license only applies in scenarios that we haven't been discussing, right?
Right.
Here's the part where there is no documentation specific to the Hyper-V Replication:
No Software Assurance, no disaster recovery, etc. etc... let's leave that out of the equation, as it provides no value in this case.
Someone simply has HV01 and HV02. Both are running Hyper-V Server 2016. HV01 has VM1 under a WS2016 standard license. HV02 has nothing but Hyper-V Server 2016.
Someone is using Hyper-V Replication to replicate VM1 to HV02.
First some MS provided definitions:
Operating System Environment (OSE) means all or part of an operating system Instance, or all or part of a virtual (or otherwise emulated) operating system Instance which enables separate machine identity (primary computer name or similar unique identifier) or separate administrative rights, and instances of applications, if any, configured to run on the operating system Instance or parts identified above. A physical hardware system can have one Physical OSE and/or one or more Virtual OSEs.
Virtual OSE means an OSE that is configured to run on a virtual hardware system.
Instance means an image of software that is created by executing the software’s setup or install procedure or by duplicating an existing Instance.
MS clearly states that all OSEs must be licensed. So the question then becomes this:
Is VM1 an OSE?
- Yes.
Is VM1 an OSE when it is turned off?
- Yes.
Is VM1 an OSE on HV02 (as a replica in a replicated state (turned off))?
- Yes, because it's a duplicate of an Instance.
Is VM1 an OSE on HV02 when it's running, and VM1 on HV01 is off?
- Yes.
There are a lot of "or"s in their definitions, which help to define them. After an "or", you can take the rest of it out, but must leave things before and after the "and"s.
Right, but we aren't talking about OSEs, so they should not be mentioned. That's an unrelated topic. Of course OSEs have to be meantioned.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
Is VM1 an OSE when it is turned off?
- Yes.
Is VM1 an OSE on HV02 (as a replica in a replicated state (turned off))?
- Yes, because it's a duplicate of an Instance.
If this is true, then anyone running Unitrends needs to license all backed up VMs because they are duplicates that can be started any time the owner wants from the Unitrends applicance.
Well, when you turn off your server... does it still need to be licensed?
I assume yes.
I don't see any mention of the word "running".
Unless that is said somewhere else.
No, of course not. It's not a server if it is off. This is silly. Obviously you don't need to license non-running systems. Even if it wasn't obvious that "files" are never licensed, MS states this plainly and always has.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
Is VM1 an OSE when it is turned off?
- Yes.
Is VM1 an OSE on HV02 (as a replica in a replicated state (turned off))?
- Yes, because it's a duplicate of an Instance.
If this is true, then anyone running Unitrends needs to license all backed up VMs because they are duplicates that can be started any time the owner wants from the Unitrends applicance.
Well, when you turn off your server... does it still need to be licensed?
I assume yes.
I don't see any mention of the word "running".
Unless that is said somewhere else.
So you are suggesting that ALL backup systems must have licensing for EVERY copy of files that they store. That you license what MIGHT be used, not what IS used?
