Freelance websites?
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Here is my take on these sites...
It's just a way for people out of work and unemployable to drive the market to the bottom and do work under conditions no one would normally accept. The workers are paid so little that they can't be qualified in any way. And you don't interview or have accountability on them. It's an attempt to get something for nothing.
It's not just IT stuff, it's anything. The whole "skilled labor for dirt cheap" would be the magic sauce that turned the global economy around if it were real. In reality, it's a scam. You'd never hire real labour that way - anonymous, based on lowest bidder, no accountability. Yet for some reason, this kind of labour tends to get approached like this.
If you think about it, all these people are are failed MSPs that can't retain customers and are willing to work at literally any price. And logically, the only possible way for them to make any money at all is by doing the work really poorly. If they put in the time to do the job well, or know how to do the job well, then being on those sites would be a waste of their time.
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In some cases, like development, there is also the risk that the programmer you hire ends up "owning" the work. We've heard of lots of firms thinking that free labour was just magic and that a million dollars of work could be magically done for $5,000 and then found themselves in a market where the developer they didn't really pay "owns" the code and now owns a competing company. Only his company has every advantage having been paid to develop the product, instead of paying to have it done, and they know the product and you don't. So their ability to bypass the original company is like a million to one ratio.
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So there are no sites where you can find skilled professionals doing freelance work? Not for bottom dollar but for reasonable pay.
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I've done some work on https://www.upwork.com -- My work is good (of course I'm kinda biased, lol) -- and there is a rating system on there as well so you can see how well someone worked out for somebody else.
There is always that risk of being scammed, but Upwork seems to be a legit site.
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Let's put it another way.
How would you go about finding skilled people that can take do short projects that take a a couple of days and where location doesn't matter?
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Depending on your location, craigslist can be good for this. But that is all community driven, Seattle has a thriving clist, other places may not.
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@pete-s said in Freelance websites?:
Let's put it another way.
How would you go about finding skilled people that can take do short projects that take a a couple of days and where location doesn't matter?
I'd still recommend Upwork.com
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@dafyre said in Freelance websites?:
@pete-s said in Freelance websites?:
Let's put it another way.
How would you go about finding skilled people that can take do short projects that take a a couple of days and where location doesn't matter?
I'd still recommend Upwork.com
Never. that shit is shit.
@scottalanmiller went through all of the points really.
Those things are absolute shit.
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@pete-s said in Freelance websites?:
So there are no sites where you can find skilled professionals doing freelance work? Not for bottom dollar but for reasonable pay.
No.
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@pete-s said in Freelance websites?:
Let's put it another way.
How would you go about finding skilled people that can take do short projects that take a a couple of days and where location doesn't matter?
Finding another good consulting company. I know NTG and Bundy Associates are well represented here, don't know of any others that I'd trust off the top of my head tho.
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@pete-s said in Freelance websites?:
So there are no sites where you can find skilled professionals doing freelance work? Not for bottom dollar but for reasonable pay.
Not that i am aware of. Thar kind of market place doesnt encourage professional behaviour.
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@pete-s said in Freelance websites?:
Let's put it another way.
How would you go about finding skilled people that can take do short projects that take a a couple of days and where location doesn't matter?
Consulting firms. This is their bread and butter. You always want a firm with a reputation. Otherwise the system cant work. Youd put more cost into interviewing than three days of work is worth.
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You can find decent people on up work, but you have to wade through shit first. Expect 9/10 people to either blatantly lie or attempt to learn on the job.
You also need to pay someone a decent rate as ones that's charge $20 an hour or less are useless and ones within the $20-45 hour range are a mixed bag. Only if you pay $50-80 an hour will you find someone somewhat decent and even then it's a risk.
At $125 an hour you should be able to find a decent MSP. Now don't get me wrong you can find somoene cheaper, but the question is how much shit are you willing to wade through before finding someone?
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@irj said in Freelance websites?:
You can find decent people on up work, but you have to wade through shit first. Expect 9/10 people to either blatantly lie or attempt to learn on the job.
You also need to pay someone a decent rate as ones that's charge $20 an hour or less are useless and ones within the $20-45 hour range are a mixed bag. Only if you pay $50-80 an hour will you find someone somewhat decent and even then it's a risk.
At $125 an hour you should be able to find a decent MSP. Now don't get me wrong you can find somoene cheaper, but the question is how much shit are you willing to wade through before finding someone?
And MSPs have longevity. You have a relationship. A contractor is hit it and quit it. A contract is just filler between real jobs.
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Thanks for your input guys!
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You have two good companies that would be able to help you from this forum:
NTG or Bundy Associates, give them a shout. -
While @scottalanmiller may not advertise it... I will... His wife Dominica does websites.
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@scottalanmiller said in Freelance websites?:
If you think about it, all these people are are failed MSPs that can't retain customers and are willing to work at literally any price. And logically, the only possible way for them to make any money at all is by doing the work really poorly. If they put in the time to do the job well, or know how to do the job well, then being on those sites would be a waste of their time.
@irj said in Freelance websites?:
ou also need to pay someone a decent rate as ones that's charge $20 an hour or less are useless
I've used one of these sites once, a few years ago, can't remember the name. I employed a guy in Bangladesh to do some InDesign work. It worked out fine.
It's a case of global labour arbitrage. $20 an hour in Bangladesh is a decent rate.
I don't know where you get the idea that a decent Bangladeshi freelancer must be a failed MSP. It's also a good way for decent IT people to earn extra money outside of their normal job. I'm charged out at about $1500 a day in my salaried day job, but would work for far less in my spare time (if I had any spare time!) as I don't have any costs - it's "money for jam" as we say in England.
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@carnival-boy said in Freelance websites?:
I don't know where you get the idea that a decent Bangladeshi freelancer must be a failed MSP. It's also a good way for decent IT people to earn extra money outside of their normal job.
I get the concept as to why it seems like a decent idea. The problem is that this is basically a one man MSP (which is okay on its own) but operating through basically a bidding process where there isn't any of the reputation and agreements of an MSP, just the individual person. You can get lucky, of course, but you have no real recourse if you don't, and you have no real relationship.
Imagine if you treated locals this way, and I think it makes it more clear. Of course, doing it locally could run you afoul of labour laws, but ignore that for the moment. Would you ever hire someone working at a fraction of market rate that isn't available through a firm with reputation, support, resources, ability to be contacts over and over, vetted resources, etc.
Doing short term work through someone is like hiring a local person without interviewing them (or if you do, the time to do so is crazy compared to the amount of work.) MSPs are what protect you here, the MSP has a reputation and is paid to vet resources. Skipping that step is pretty big.
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From the freelancer's perspective, they have the option of providing their work via an MSP (which they could own, or co-own), it's not like they are barred from that. In doing so, their rates could be more competitive while potentially offering far more value.
