Student Loan Forgiveness Rant
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@scottalanmiller said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
What torqued my wife and I off was that a new program was put in place for teachers to have gov't funded loans forgiven, but she didn't qualify because she was before the start date they picked. But of course all the teachers since then.... HUGE reduction in student loan fees.
All of that said - I'm with Dustin in that the government shouldn't be using public money to put people through college. The government, often requiring college degrees, just furthers a system of waste and control.
I'm the opposite, the gov't should put everyone through college. It's the picking and choosing that is the problem.
So you're saying all education should be paid, and I'm saying after HS it should not be paid by the government at all - meh... Really I don't give a shit as long as it's equal either way, which clearly today it's not.
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@storageninja equating 401K investments to private loan debt forgiveness aren't the same.
You're investing that money (pre tax) from the job you are working today to retire.
It could completely tank and you could lose all of it. Or it could go great during your life and you could retire a millionaire.
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@anthonyh said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
TL;DR - It doesn't work out for everyone.
It's not quite as simple as how @PenguinWrangler may be explaining it. I work for the gov't (state) and have looked into this (I have way more student loan debt that I'm willing to admit, unfortunately)...
You must make 120 qualifying payments towards a federal student loan before they will forgive the loan. They will forgive the remainder of the federal loan once that requirement is met. And these qualifying payments do not start until you're on an Income Based Repayment (IBR) plan.
If you leave the public sector that clock resets, so you must work for the public sector for the entire 120 payment stint.
You must also be on an Income Based Repayment plan. In my case, because I have so much friggin' student loan debt, my IBR payment was astronomical. And, for some reason I could never understand, the calculations for my IBR payment made it so that I'd have the loan paid off in ~120 payments anyway. so there would have been minimal, if any, money to be forgiven. I think it was due to not having any dependents at the time (wasn't yet married nor had any kids). This was in 2010.
I did have, however, a substantial (to me) mortgage that I valued more than paying my student loans off early (which worked out well for us fortunately).
Fast forward to 2013 where I was happily married and had newborn twins. Oooh, great, time to look into the student loan forgiveness plan! Nope. Given the 3 years of payments I had already put in (which did not count since it wasn't on an IBR plan), the calculations still balanced to where I'd have the loans paid off within the ~120 payment timeframe.
It would've been a nice perk, but I have to think of it in terms that I'm lucky to be able to afford to pay off my student loans and still live a somewhat middle-class life.
You are correct. I didn't dive into the deep details. I worked for the State of Missouri for 6 years and none of that counts. I am paying more than my income-based repayment plan requires each month, which I will probably just pay the IBR amount now, however, I still have to make 120 on-time payments which are 10 years of payments. This all supposes they don't end this program before I work for 10 years as well.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@scottalanmiller said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
What torqued my wife and I off was that a new program was put in place for teachers to have gov't funded loans forgiven, but she didn't qualify because she was before the start date they picked. But of course all the teachers since then.... HUGE reduction in student loan fees.
All of that said - I'm with Dustin in that the government shouldn't be using public money to put people through college. The government, often requiring college degrees, just furthers a system of waste and control.
I'm the opposite, the gov't should put everyone through college. It's the picking and choosing that is the problem.
I'm not against fully funded community college for everyone. I'm against forgiving debts that people have promised to pay back because a person is unable to find a higher paying job.
You agreed to the terms of the loan, now pay it back. Sorry you can't get/find a better job. Not the public's issue.
I'm just not picking up what you're putting down. The loan came from the government, so the government has that as a benefit for working for them...
If the loan came from Wells Fargo, and you went to work for them, then they would have that as an option to offer you.
Question - do you think it's BS that people that work for Cox Communication get free free cable/phone/internet because they work there? The loan forgiveness as a government employee is really no different.
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@anthonyh said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
You must make 120 qualifying payments towards a federal student loan before they will forgive the loan. They will forgive the remainder of the federal loan once that requirement is met. And these qualifying payments do not start until you're on an Income Based Repayment (IBR) plan.
If you make 120 payments for most people on IBR you are going to have paid the base balance (or most of it). IBR penalizes you for being married (My income is added to my wife's and they don't divide by 2) so because of my earnings even if we did the 10-year plan (She's eligible) I'd still end up paying almost as much as just paying it down early (What I"m doing). You have to pay interest all that time on IBR, and 10 years of interest on a reasonably high interest loan is a thing.
Now I'm hoping (Fingers crossed) My wife gets a K grant from the NIH (which will pay off something like 35K a year). This helps offset the fact that researchers make basically 1/2 to a 1/3 what they could get on the private market. The point of these mechanisms is to make sure smart people (from a poor background) actually can go into government service, education, or research. While she could go into private practice we all benefit more from her doing research into Vaccine development for virus's that kill small children.
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@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@anthonyh said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
TL;DR - It doesn't work out for everyone.
It's not quite as simple as how @PenguinWrangler may be explaining it. I work for the gov't (state) and have looked into this (I have way more student loan debt that I'm willing to admit, unfortunately)...
You must make 120 qualifying payments towards a federal student loan before they will forgive the loan. They will forgive the remainder of the federal loan once that requirement is met. And these qualifying payments do not start until you're on an Income Based Repayment (IBR) plan.
If you leave the public sector that clock resets, so you must work for the public sector for the entire 120 payment stint.
You must also be on an Income Based Repayment plan. In my case, because I have so much friggin' student loan debt, my IBR payment was astronomical. And, for some reason I could never understand, the calculations for my IBR payment made it so that I'd have the loan paid off in ~120 payments anyway. so there would have been minimal, if any, money to be forgiven. I think it was due to not having any dependents at the time (wasn't yet married nor had any kids). This was in 2010.
I did have, however, a substantial (to me) mortgage that I valued more than paying my student loans off early (which worked out well for us fortunately).
Fast forward to 2013 where I was happily married and had newborn twins. Oooh, great, time to look into the student loan forgiveness plan! Nope. Given the 3 years of payments I had already put in (which did not count since it wasn't on an IBR plan), the calculations still balanced to where I'd have the loans paid off within the ~120 payment timeframe.
It would've been a nice perk, but I have to think of it in terms that I'm lucky to be able to afford to pay off my student loans and still live a somewhat middle-class life.
You are correct. I didn't dive into the deep details. I worked for the State of Missouri for 6 years and none of that counts. I am paying more than my income-based repayment plan requires each month, which I will probably just pay the IBR amount now, however, I still have to make 120 on-time payments which are 10 years of payments. This all supposes they don't end this program before I work for 10 years as well.
I'd hope I'm correct given I've worked in the public sector since 2006 and have looked into this multiple times really really hoping to benefit from it.
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
I as someone who's paid every penny of my student loans haven't received a government benefit from paying my bill.
Why should you get a benefit for working for a government agency receive a benefit that isn't / wasn't available to me?
@dustinb3403 It could be available to you. You are not barred from working for a non-profit or the government. How is it any different than a company saying if you work for 'x' amount of years we will pay off your student loans or a company saying we will pay for you to go back to school?
Because the tax payers are the people are paying off your bad choices.
I chose to bust my ass and get a good paying job so I could pay my debts, because I don't want to be in debt forever.
You / me / and anyone else with college loans agreed to the terms on the loan. You can't go and change them after you get dealt a shit hand at life.
Hold the phone - the government paying you a lower salary than you can earn in the private sector, and instead that money going to the loan is the same as you a private citizen paying the loan, just the middle man is removed. Please lower taxes for the employee, because income used to pay the loan would be taxable..
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@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
kill small children.
Screw the kids, Darwinism needs a leg up here.
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@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Question - do you think it's BS that people that work for Cox Communication get free free cable/phone/internet because they work there? The loan forgiveness as a government employee is really no different.
Other untaxed benefits. Hotel and airline mile points. I've known guys in sales getting like 40-50K worth of untaxed fringe benefits for this. This is basically a subsidization of traveling sales roles by the federal government. I spent a week in Bali with TAX FREE earnings from my Marriott points if we want to get pedantic. The optics on that politically look awful.
I work for a software company so I can eat 2 meals a day in our break room from all the ridiculous stuff we have (also not taxed).
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Screw the kids, Darwinism needs a leg up here.
RSV, is a cold doesn't really have any genetic lottery winners. It tends to strike pretty equally on them all before their immune systems develop and we find out how good their genes are. It's harmless to anyone with a developed immune system but when it hits a kid 10 days old its a different matter.
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@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Screw the kids, Darwinism needs a leg up here.
RSV, is a cold doesn't really have any genetic lottery winners. It tends to strike pretty equally on them all before their immune systems develop and we find out how good their genes are. It's harmless to anyone with a developed immune system but when it hits a kid 10 days old its a different matter.
Okay, so have the private sector pick up this research, I don't see why researchers in the public sector need to do this, and get their loans forgiven.
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@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Hold the phone - the government paying you a lower salary than you can earn in the private sector, and instead that money going to the loan is the same as you a private citizen paying the loan, just the middle man is removed. Please lower taxes for the employee, because income used to pay the loan would be taxable..
We actually have something similar in the private sector. You have a tax credit for federal income tax against state and local taxes paid. Some argue it encourages wasteful spending. What your arguing is that cities and states with high taxes and benefits should not get a break on federal income tax for their residents, and instead money should be double taxed.
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@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@momurda said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Also, people saying the government shouldnt be spending money on education, LOL.
It should be the highest expenditure of the federal government and local governments.
It should dwarf the War Department's budget.Spending on education is fine, spending to remove debt that someone agreed to is that individual persons responsibility. Not the public's responsibility.
I understand what you are saying. I get where you are coming from. I have set myself and family up to have my loans paid off in the next 5 to 7 years. Without the forgiveness. I have been eating a lot of ramen and pb&j for lunch. We have been watching our money closely. Whether or not the government should do this is one thing. I would be stupid not to take it though when it is available to me.
My stance isn't with you. It's with the system, how it's rigged and royally helping 1 and screwing over 1000.
You said your self that this 63K debt is tax-free. That's insane.
Depends on which tax schedule you use.
The tax on 63K at long-term capital gains rate (it's a long-term payback, and it's not THAT much money) is 12% or ~7.56K note a huge amount.Also, lots of stuff is tax-free. I didn't pay taxes on the money I put into my 401K. That's $5940 (or $11,880 joint filed, as I'm maxing out my wife's account) worth of taxes I'm not paying every year! The earnings in my Roth IRA are tax-free (I put in 11K last year, and the 8% gains for the year on it are tax-free!)
Semantics here.... but assuming traditional 401k, that's tax-deferred not free. On the Roth side though you are correct earnings are tax free.
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@zachary715 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@momurda said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Also, people saying the government shouldnt be spending money on education, LOL.
It should be the highest expenditure of the federal government and local governments.
It should dwarf the War Department's budget.Spending on education is fine, spending to remove debt that someone agreed to is that individual persons responsibility. Not the public's responsibility.
I understand what you are saying. I get where you are coming from. I have set myself and family up to have my loans paid off in the next 5 to 7 years. Without the forgiveness. I have been eating a lot of ramen and pb&j for lunch. We have been watching our money closely. Whether or not the government should do this is one thing. I would be stupid not to take it though when it is available to me.
My stance isn't with you. It's with the system, how it's rigged and royally helping 1 and screwing over 1000.
You said your self that this 63K debt is tax-free. That's insane.
Depends on which tax schedule you use.
The tax on 63K at long-term capital gains rate (it's a long-term payback, and it's not THAT much money) is 12% or ~7.56K note a huge amount.Also, lots of stuff is tax-free. I didn't pay taxes on the money I put into my 401K. That's $5940 (or $11,880 joint filed, as I'm maxing out my wife's account) worth of taxes I'm not paying every year! The earnings in my Roth IRA are tax-free (I put in 11K last year, and the 8% gains for the year on it are tax-free!)
Semantics here.... but assuming traditional 401k, that's tax-deferred not free. On the Roth side though you are correct earnings are tax free.
The money you put into a Roth IRA is free, not the earnings. If you put in a ROTH IRA 10,000 and earnn 2,000 the 10,000 is tax free because, you have already paid taxes on that 10,000. The 2,000 it earned can be taxed. I have been checking on what to do with my 401K
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Screw the kids, Darwinism needs a leg up here.
RSV, is a cold doesn't really have any genetic lottery winners. It tends to strike pretty equally on them all before their immune systems develop and we find out how good their genes are. It's harmless to anyone with a developed immune system but when it hits a kid 10 days old its a different matter.
Okay, so have the private sector pick up this research, I don't see why researchers in the public sector need to do this and get their loans forgiven.
There's no money in pediatric vaccines for the private sector (Beyond government grants to fund things). Since there is no non-human host once you make a vaccine we will pretty much destroy the virus in 10 years (hopefully less). You could set up a contract vehicle and have them employed this way, but most clinical researchers are affiliated with Medical Schools (which are overwhelmingly non-profit/public institutions). K-Grants are designed for young researchers for 3-5 years to get them started until they can start getting either contracts from private companies or from the NIH (It's a one-time starter grant).
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@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@scottalanmiller said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dashrender said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
What torqued my wife and I off was that a new program was put in place for teachers to have gov't funded loans forgiven, but she didn't qualify because she was before the start date they picked. But of course all the teachers since then.... HUGE reduction in student loan fees.
All of that said - I'm with Dustin in that the government shouldn't be using public money to put people through college. The government, often requiring college degrees, just furthers a system of waste and control.
I'm the opposite, the gov't should put everyone through college. It's the picking and choosing that is the problem.
I'm not against fully funded community college for everyone. I'm against forgiving debts that people have promised to pay back because a person is unable to find a higher paying job.
You agreed to the terms of the loan, now pay it back. Sorry you can't get/find a better job. Not the public's issue.
I'm just not picking up what you're putting down. The loan came from the government, so the government has that as a benefit for working for them...
If the loan came from Wells Fargo, and you went to work for them, then they would have that as an option to offer you.
Question - do you think it's BS that people that work for Cox Communication get free free cable/phone/internet because they work there? The loan forgiveness as a government employee is really no different.
HIs whole argument here is that it's the public sector which is offering this benefit with "our" tax dollars. I think he's fine with private businesses doing this same matter because they aren't operating with a $20trillion and growing debt with no solution in sight.
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@zachary715 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
HIs whole argument here is that it's the public sector which is offering this benefit with "our" tax dollars. I think he's fine with private businesses doing this same matter because they aren't operating with a $20trillion and growing debt with no solution in sight.
That is where my stance is. Private business, do whatever you want with the money you're earning.
Public sector needs to get their **** together.
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@zachary715 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
HIs whole argument here is that it's the public sector which is offering this benefit with "our" tax dollars. I think he's fine with private businesses doing this same matter because they aren't operating with a $20trillion and growing debt with no solution in sight
The alternatives are raising salaries a bunch for government roles (unpopular), or only historically rich, or the very stupid will end up working in government as the private sector absorbs everyone with debt who's smart. All of these options suck
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@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
Public sector needs to get their **** together.
Voters refuse to allow the public sector to pay above the private. (This used to be a thing). Barring that they've had to get creative to attract talent.
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@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@zachary715 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@storageninja said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@penguinwrangler said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@dustinb3403 said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
@momurda said in Student Loan Forgiveness Rant:
That isnt how it works from @PenguinWrangler description.
The forgiveness will be taxed as income, probably at the rate bonuses/lottery income, much higher than regular income unless he is making tons of money(he isnt if working for feds).
He is essentially an indentured servant to the federal government for the next decade.Also, people saying the government shouldnt be spending money on education, LOL.
It should be the highest expenditure of the federal government and local governments.
It should dwarf the War Department's budget.Spending on education is fine, spending to remove debt that someone agreed to is that individual persons responsibility. Not the public's responsibility.
I understand what you are saying. I get where you are coming from. I have set myself and family up to have my loans paid off in the next 5 to 7 years. Without the forgiveness. I have been eating a lot of ramen and pb&j for lunch. We have been watching our money closely. Whether or not the government should do this is one thing. I would be stupid not to take it though when it is available to me.
My stance isn't with you. It's with the system, how it's rigged and royally helping 1 and screwing over 1000.
You said your self that this 63K debt is tax-free. That's insane.
Depends on which tax schedule you use.
The tax on 63K at long-term capital gains rate (it's a long-term payback, and it's not THAT much money) is 12% or ~7.56K note a huge amount.Also, lots of stuff is tax-free. I didn't pay taxes on the money I put into my 401K. That's $5940 (or $11,880 joint filed, as I'm maxing out my wife's account) worth of taxes I'm not paying every year! The earnings in my Roth IRA are tax-free (I put in 11K last year, and the 8% gains for the year on it are tax-free!)
Semantics here.... but assuming traditional 401k, that's tax-deferred not free. On the Roth side though you are correct earnings are tax free.
The money you put into a Roth IRA is free, not the earnings. If you put in a ROTH IRA 10,000 and earnn 2,000 the 10,000 is tax free because, you have already paid taxes on that 10,000. The 2,000 it earned can be taxed. I have been checking on what to do with my 401K
No you're confused. In a Roth scenario, your contributions are after-tax, meaning you would put the $10,000 dollars in after you've already paid taxes on it. Whatever you earn from investing that $10,000, in your example $2,000, would then be dispersed tax-free as long as you meet the requirements.
In a Roth scenario, all money is put in after you've paid taxes on it, but money is taken out tax-free, meaning no double taxation and no tax on earnings.
