Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students
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No different than any two other "different" disciplines. Being an electrician and being in IT are totally different things, which I think most people understand. IT has no need to understand voltages, impedence, building codes and regulations, cable terminations, etc. None of that is IT, at all, not even close. But outsides often confuse them, just as some places confuse IT with plumbers (in the literal sense, I know people who have had this problem and the IT manager ended up plumbing sprinkler systems!)
One is not better or worse, it's just two different careers that do different things. If any of these fields were unionized, it would be a lot more apparent because there would be contractual separation that you couldn't casually cross. This often happens with electricians. If you do IT in a hospital, for example, that building CAT6 cables isn't IT in any way because really, really obvious.
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@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
To me, DELPOYING hard drives is bench work. Deciding which machines to buy is IT. Imaging them and managing the systems is IT. Keeping the hardware clean is bench.
I guess I should point out that you are the first person I have ever talked with that does not consider these things IT. To my friends who admins of some type, 1 director, and 1 vp from other places....if it affects IT directly , like bench work, then it is IT. So everyone is not on the same page as far as terms go I believe.
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
Having more technical knowledge does not improve business decision processes, that's a totally different thing.
I am confused about what thing this is then because if the people who made the decisions had more technical knowledge then they would not make the decisions they do. Business decisions in IT need this technical knowledge to make good decisions for the business.
How would knowing tech fix the decision process? They already know that they need to do proper research before making a decision and don't do it. So more knowledge would be useless if the process is flawed. And the issue you mention, is purely one of process.
Also, how does bench work fix the process or the lack of knowledge as the items you mention aren't intrinsic bench knowledge.
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
To me, DELPOYING hard drives is bench work. Deciding which machines to buy is IT. Imaging them and managing the systems is IT. Keeping the hardware clean is bench.
I guess I should point out that you are the first person I have ever talked with that does not consider these things IT. To my friends who admins of some type, 1 director, and 1 vp from other places....if it affects IT directly , like bench work, then it is IT. So everyone is not on the same page as far as terms go I believe.
Would these be the same people you just said don't know the most basic technical details and can't figure out how to do basic IT decision making? Is it then a surprise that they cannot even identify IT as a field? Seems like that would be a likely shortcoming. If they aren't taking care to know and do the basics, this seems like an obvious thing for them not to have learned, thought about or looked into.
All kinds of things affect IT that aren't IT. Seating, desks, electrical, HVAC, generators, sprinklers, racks, flooring, etc. Obviously none of those are IT or even close to it.
Part of the point that I'm making in these threads is the importance of getting universities to teach the basics, so that people with IT titles aren't confusing Geek Squad employees or their plumbers as being IT staff. How much better would IT operate if the IT department knew what its was supposed to deliver?
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@scottalanmiller You are right when you say the basic technology has not changed much from one decade to another. i guess to be more clear I mean that having good bench works or management who could do it well is fundamental to making good business decisions for newer equipment. I understand that anyone can look up what i needed to make a good decision but unless your knowledge is within the last 5 years or so then you have no idea what the stuff means anymore. Now you may be different and could be more hands on but ti did not sound like it the way you answered other questions. If I am wrong then forgive me i do apologize. I just think good decisions come from good fundamental knowledge. From your definition I don't really do bench work either but if certain members of my management did then they would not make the decisions they do for our users. I hope that makes more sense.
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In the enterprise space, you have facilities people who put computers on desks and plug them in. Because even that stuff is not bench. In the same way that the bench shops doing maintenance are not IT. It's all clearly separate.
In small shops, IT does lots of other jobs because they lack the staff to do it and someone has to do it and since IT waits on it, IT does the work, it just makes sense. But that's in no way the same as it being an IT job.
Far removed example: you use the company restroom and it is running low on toilet paper. So you restock the toilet paper since you are there and notice that it is low. That doesn't make stocking toilet paper an IT function, even though IT did it.
Just like IT will often put a monitor on a desk, just because it would be a ridiculous thing to do to wait for a facilities person to come and do that with IT is standing right there ready to work on the company. But if you are in an enterprise shop with a union facilities team, you legally can't do that and that one role is IT and one is not becomes extremely obvious.
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
@scottalanmiller You are right when you say the basic technology has not changed much from one decade to another. i guess to be more clear I mean that having good bench works or management who could do it well is fundamental to making good business decisions for newer equipment.
But it's not. That's what I'm saying. No amount of bench skills or knowledge will help the IT decision. The issue is a lack of IT knowledge and a lack of IT processes to look it up when needed. The issue you mention is an IT one, I'm unclear how you are connecting it to bench. Why would a bench tech have any of that knowledge or know how to apply it?
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
I understand that anyone can look up what i needed to make a good decision but unless your knowledge is within the last 5 years or so then you have no idea what the stuff means anymore.
I don't agree. There is nothing in the last five years like this. Twenty years, maybe. But again, in one case you are discussing if bench work is IT, and in the other talking about IT people doing a job poorly that's disconnected from bench.
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@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
Having bench knowledge does nothing for IT decision making. No amount of bench work or experience would fix the issues of not being up to date on IT info, not knowing how to look it up or when to look it up or how to capacity plan for the users' needs
While I agree that bench work is not a substitute for keeping up with IT info i do disagree that bench knowledge does nothing for IT decision making. This knowledge of how a system works I believe is key in buying the best systems for your users while not spending more money than you have to. Good decision making and bench knowledge gets the best results. Both have to be learned. If anyone never does bench work and only looks stuff up then they are making bad decisions in my opinion.
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
While I agree that bench work is not a substitute for keeping up with IT info i do disagree that bench knowledge does nothing for IT decision making.
How would it help?
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
... i do disagree that bench knowledge does nothing for IT decision making. This knowledge of how a system works I believe is key in buying the best systems for your users while not spending more money than you have to.
Bench is NOT knowledge of how a system works. That's IT knowledge.
Here is an easy guide... if the knowledge is beneficial to IT, it's IT knowledge. If it's not, it's bench. Use that as the definition to figure out which is which.
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
Good decision making and bench knowledge gets the best results. Both have to be learned.
It would not. Use your example as a guide. Like I keep saying, no amount of bench knowledge would have changed anything in the situation. They'd still be just as clueless, still not know what they need, still make the same decisions. Bench knowledge would not help.
Example... how would knowing techniques for spreading grease on a processor help in the capacity planning problem that you mentioned?
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
If anyone never does bench work and only looks stuff up then they are making bad decisions in my opinion.
I can't agree here. Bench work has no bearing or utility in IT. It might be interesting, but it has no value. Name any bench, non-IT, skill that you have any ability to utilize in an IT job?
There are overlaps, of course, like any fields have overlap. Being a physicist, a mathematician, an accountant and a baker all have some amount of math overlap, but we don't say that they are the same jobs. Bench and IT have some basic overlaps, but the bench skills and processes have zero value to IT... in fact learning them would arguably waste time that should be spent learning useful IT skills - which might be the kinds of things affecting your decision makers in the example. The kind of problem that they had could easily arrise from knowing bench but not IT. Those kinds of capacity planning mistakes are exactly would would be expected if bench people tried to make IT decisions without understanding IT scope and needs.
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@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
Well the video goes into it, but they are fundamentally different disciplines. One is a business discipline, IT delivers business solutions and only exists in the context of a business. Without business, there is no IT. IT is not about tech, but generally uses tech to provide business infrastructure.
Bench is pure tech, no business. It delivers technology as its deliverable and can function (and does) with no business at all.Okay I see what you are saying. I will just have to use your definition of IT and bench work I guess. The problem I can see is almost everyone sees these two disciplines are one and the same.
While it might seem bench is pure tech you can not buy it without money which is business and it is always for a business reason such as to make money by using it. That is still business and therefore some form of IT
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Remember that bench is "tech in a vacuum"... that is "tech without context."
Example of bench jobs include Geek Squad and datacenter techs who rack and stack.
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
Okay I see what you are saying. I will just have to use your definition of IT and bench work I guess. The problem I can see is almost everyone sees these two disciplines are one and the same.
They are so wildly different, it's hard to believe anyone working in either does that. There really is extremely little overlap. In the enterprise space, they are not just totally separate disciplines, but have legal ramifications and in the financial space have full separation of duty concerns. IT isn't allowed into data centers, bench isn't allowed access to IT systems. They are extremely discrete.
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
While it might seem bench is pure tech you can not buy it without money which is business ...
Now you are getting into the crazy realm and we are back to janitors and plumbers are not IT.
Bench exists without business, go to Geek Squad. Consumers buy tech and get tech work done with no business and no business context.
That's why GS does bench, not IT. They never make business decisions, they just sell what sounds cool.
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@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:
While it might seem bench is pure tech you can not buy it without money which is business and it is always for a business reason such as to make money by using it. That is still business and therefore some form of IT
Bench doesn't buy tech, bench works on tech in a business. They work on tech purchased by IT. If you stick to the definitions that I gave, it really does keep this clear. Bench doesn't make business decisions. If you feel that bench is doing that, check again, it's always IT making the decision (or no one making a decision and it is all just random... which is pretty reckless.)
Bench and IT really are totally clearly separated as roles and are trivial to separate into different people and skill sets. That most companies don't understand IT or bench at all, do both poorly and know nothing about them is exactly what is expected. Most companies can't figure out electricians, HVAC and other roles, either. That's just businesses doing business badly. Most businesses don't take the time to learn business, and most businesses fail. But that doesn't mean that those roles aren't there, just that they aren't being managed well.
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Some examples I gave in the video...
High end bench is enterprise datacenter workers. They swap failed RAID drives, cable systems, rack and stack, know how to load a rack for safety, know rails and power supply needs, know how to label and bundle cables, know how to handle air flow for servers (front to back, center aisle, etc.), know about UPS, generators, cooling, environmental monitoring, etc. They manage physical inventories, track systems, etc.
What they don't do is make decisions about the technology infrastructure. They work with it physically, but not logically. It's a very clear separation.
You see the same one with colocation. Colocation facilities do not have IT of their own, at least not that you interact with. They have bench. With colocation, you bring the IT, they bring the bench. That is specifically the role that you are outsourcing (along with the HVAC and electrical.) Those guys that rack and stack your servers, swap your motherboards or memory when they fail, watch for failed hard drive lights, etc. are high end bench pros. They might earn six figures, but they do it in a bench capacity, not an IT one.
No amount of knowing your business financials, understanding Linux vs. Windows, knowing database structures, ability to script, grokking DevOps or so forth would alter their jobs.
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Another way to think of things... I do a lot of writing, videos, etc. Nothing I write has any use to someone in bench (other than letting them know that the A+ and Server+ are their certs and not ours.) I talk about business needs, IT planning and thought processes, best practices for IT. Someone in bench, at any level, would find it all... useless.
