Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions
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@scottalanmiller They have a different compensation plan (although it changed as we are now in FY18 for Dell's calendar year) so you'll see different behaviors in their sales force from different people.
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@John-Nicholson said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
Also that cost study on vSAN is funky. The costs don't make sense to me based on quotes I've seen (I suspect no one actually was trying to get a discounted quote, and put 5 years or support or something on it). It also uses SATA drives (not certified for vSAN) for capacity instead of NL-SAS drives, and looks to be using a non-certified cache tier drive.
Listed MSRP in both cases. So neither side uses a discount.
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@John-Nicholson said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller If your doing a 3 node vSAN for a low cost deployment you should go single socket and get more core's per proc. Leaves you room to scale later and costs the vSAN cost in half.
They are likely stuck here with whatever was already bought. But good info for a greenfield deployment. Or if they manage to return these for three R730 for example.
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Honestly, I would return EVERYTHING.
Then I would sit down and design it the right way, using a few R730xd servers, with appropriate specs to accommodate your needs. With that and Starwind vSAN, you can get your HA.
Do you actually need HA? Does the company feel spending the money for real HA is a business requirement and makes financial sense?
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Tim has a point. At some point you need to start over. This is the core of the business, right? Does anyone really want the core of the business to be a huge compromise based on "fixing" layer after layer of bad decisions before? The design wasn't the best, the products weren't right, the products that are okay were based on products that were not, etc. Start over, do it right the whole way. Go to management, explain that this isn't a place where you rush or compromise - this has to work.
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@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@John-Nicholson said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller If your doing a 3 node vSAN for a low cost deployment you should go single socket and get more core's per proc. Leaves you room to scale later and costs the vSAN cost in half.
They are likely stuck here with whatever was already bought. But good info for a greenfield deployment. Or if they manage to return these for three R730 for example.
I'm not entirely certain we'll be stuck with what we bought. My boss and I were on a conference call with folks from Dell yesterday afternoon. They were talking about different options in SAN devices that would meet our requirements (whether it was Compellent, EMC, etc.), but the biggest issue was that these options were so expensive. Again, not one of them mentioned the potential for a VSAN deployment, so we brought it up (using either VMware VSAN or Starwind). The Dell team has to go back and redesign a quote for gear that would better support a VSAN deployment. In their words, they would likely have to return the servers and the PowerVault we have right now (not sure about the other gear - PowerConnect switches, TrippLite devices, APC PDUs, AppAssure appliance, and ip KVM switch).
I'll be curious to see what comes back when they re-quote.
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@John-Nicholson said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller If your doing a 3 node vSAN for a low cost deployment you should go single socket and get more core's per proc. Leaves you room to scale later and costs the vSAN cost in half.
They are likely stuck here with whatever was already bought. But good info for a greenfield deployment. Or if they manage to return these for three R730 for example.
I'm not entirely certain we'll be stuck with what we bought. My boss and I were on a conference call with folks from Dell yesterday afternoon. They were talking about different options in SAN devices that would meet our requirements (whether it was Compellent, EMC, etc.), but the biggest issue was that these options were so expensive. Again, not one of them mentioned the potential for a VSAN deployment, so we brought it up (using either VMware VSAN or Starwind). The Dell team has to go back and redesign a quote for gear that would better support a VSAN deployment. In their words, they would likely have to return the servers and the PowerVault we have right now (not sure about the other gear - PowerConnect switches, TrippLite devices, APC PDUs, AppAssure appliance, and ip KVM switch).
I'll be curious to see what comes back when they re-quote.
Why do they have to design a quote? You just tell them what you want, they give you a price. Other than "looking up the price", what are they doing?
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It's great that they are being so open and flexible. I mean they should be, but so often people are not.
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@Tim_G said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
Honestly, I would return EVERYTHING.
Then I would sit down and design it the right way, using a few R730xd servers, with appropriate specs to accommodate your needs. With that and Starwind vSAN, you can get your HA.
Do you actually need HA? Does the company feel spending the money for real HA is a business requirement and makes financial sense?
If I were commenting on this post, I would be asking the same thing. In this case, management agrees HA is a business requirement (not buying a feature that is touted as HA but actually implementing HA for our workloads).
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I want to make sure I understand how Starwind works in a 2-node VMware configuration. Here's the overview on their site - https://www.starwindsoftware.com/starwind-virtual-san-vmware. We would get 2 hosts on the vSphere HCL with enough internal spinning disks to get the capacity we need (roughly 10-12 TB), some SSDs for caching, and plenty of RAM. If I read that page correctly, in the VMware world, Starwind runs on a VM on each of the hosts and mirrors the storage between hosts for you (I assume presenting just one giant LUN to your ESXi hosts), and the hosts are connected to one another directly through a dedicated NIC for the mirroring and heartbeating.
I'm also assuming you are turning RAID off on each host so Starwind can provide RAIN for you (thus creating the storage pool). But if Starwind has to run on a VM on your hosts, wouldn't that mean you'd have to have some storage on your hosts that is setup as a datastore already so that Starwind's VM can actually run on it (i.e. two disks in a RAID 1 presented as a local datastore to each host on which you'd create the VMs for Starwind)?
If you look at page 8 of this comparison guide (https://www.starwindsoftware.com/whitepapers/free-vs-paid.pdf), the deployment scenarios say you can run this VM-less inside the hypervisor.
I saw some articles about having the compute and storage separated (https://www.starwindsoftware.com/technical_papers/StarWind_Virtual_SAN_Compute_and_Storage_Separated_2-Node_Cluster_iSCSI_VMware_vSphere.pdf), but in this case you would have 2 ESXi hosts and then two other hosts that ran Windows and Starwind to act as your VSAN pool.
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
I'm also assuming you are turning RAID off on each host so Starwind can provide RAIN for you (thus creating the storage pool).
No, you leave RAID on on the hosts and Starwind provides Network RAID. There is no RAIN here.
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
I saw some articles about having the compute and storage separated (https://www.starwindsoftware.com/technical_papers/StarWind_Virtual_SAN_Compute_and_Storage_Separated_2-Node_Cluster_iSCSI_VMware_vSphere.pdf), but in this case you would have 2 ESXi hosts and then two other hosts that ran Windows and Starwind to act as your VSAN pool.
You can do that, you would not do it at this scale. You need to be closer to a dozen physical hosts to consider that.
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@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
I'm also assuming you are turning RAID off on each host so Starwind can provide RAIN for you (thus creating the storage pool).
No, you leave RAID on on the hosts and Starwind provides Network RAID. There is no RAIN here.
So you'd leave RAID on and then make a small local VMFS datastore for the Starwind VM to run on so that Starwind can use the rest of the unformatted storage on the host for its network RAID?
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@John-Nicholson said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller If your doing a 3 node vSAN for a low cost deployment you should go single socket and get more core's per proc. Leaves you room to scale later and costs the vSAN cost in half.
Also that cost study on vSAN is funky. The costs don't make sense to me based on quotes I've seen (I suspect no one actually was trying to get a discounted quote, and put 5 years or support or something on it). It also uses SATA drives (not certified for vSAN) for capacity instead of NL-SAS drives, and looks to be using a non-certified cache tier drive.
I remember you mentioning that once before about going single socket. That's a good point for consideration in all of this.
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
I'm also assuming you are turning RAID off on each host so Starwind can provide RAIN for you (thus creating the storage pool).
No, you leave RAID on on the hosts and Starwind provides Network RAID. There is no RAIN here.
So you'd leave RAID on and then make a small local VMFS datastore for the Starwind VM to run on so that Starwind can use the rest of the unformatted storage on the host for its network RAID?
You just follow the Starwind install guide. But yes, that is what is going on.
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
If you look at page 8 of this comparison guide (https://www.starwindsoftware.com/whitepapers/free-vs-paid.pdf), the deployment scenarios say you can run this VM-less inside the hypervisor.
They've always had that for Hyper-V, have they added it for VMware?
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
Before I started here a couple of months ago, my boss purchased a couple of Dell R630s and a PowerVault MD3820i (20 drive bays) to be our new infrastructure at HQ. We have dual 10Gb PowerConnect switches and two UPS devices, each connected to a different circuit. The plan is to rebuild the infrastructure on vSphere Standard (licenses already purchased) and have a similar setup in a datacenter somewhere (replicate the SANs, etc.). We're using AppAssure for backups (again, already purchased).
The PowerVault has 16 SAS drives that are 1.8 TB 7200 RPM SED drives and 4 SAS drives that are 400 GB SSD for caching. Well, we made disk groups and virtual disks using the SEDs (letting the SAN manage the keys), but it turns out we cannot use the SSDs they sent us for caching. In fact, they don't have SED SSDs for this model SAN.
At the time the sale was made, Dell ensured my boss everything would work as he requested (being able to use the SSDs for caching with the 7200 RPM SED drives). Now that we know this isn't going to be the case, we have some options.
First, they recommended we trade in the PowerVault for a Compellent and Equalogic. The boss did not want that because he was saying you are forced to do RAID 6 on those devices and cannot go with RAID 10 in your disk groups. As another option, Dell recommended we put the SSDs in our two hosts and use Infinio so we can do caching with the drives we have. In this case we would make Dell pay for the Infinio licenses and possibly more RAM since they made the mistake.
But I'm wondering if perhaps there is another option. Each server has 6 drive bays. So we have 20 drives total. Couldn't we have Dell take the SAN back, give us another R630, and pay for licenses of VMware vSAN for all 3 hosts? Each server has four 10 Gb NICs and two 1 Gb NICs. That might require we get additional NICs. But in this case, I'm not sure drive encryption is an option or if we can utilize the SEDs at all.
I've not double-checked the vSAN HCL or anything for the gear in our servers as this is just me spit balling. Is there some other option we have not considered? We're looking to get the 14 TB or so of usable space that RAID 10 will provide, but the self-encrypting drives were deemed a necessity by the boss. And without some type of caching, we will not hit our IOPs requirements.
Any advice is much appreciated.
Keep R630s, refund PowerVault, refund AppAss. Get VMware VSAN and Veeam (accordingly).
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@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
If you look at page 8 of this comparison guide (https://www.starwindsoftware.com/whitepapers/free-vs-paid.pdf), the deployment scenarios say you can run this VM-less inside the hypervisor.
They've always had that for Hyper-V, have they added it for VMware?
I can't seem to find any evidence of it in their documentation from doing a bit of searching (other than the comparison PDF I linked to above).
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@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
I'm also assuming you are turning RAID off on each host so Starwind can provide RAIN for you (thus creating the storage pool).
No, you leave RAID on on the hosts and Starwind provides Network RAID. There is no RAIN here.
So you'd leave RAID on and then make a small local VMFS datastore for the Starwind VM to run on so that Starwind can use the rest of the unformatted storage on the host for its network RAID?
You just follow the Starwind install guide. But yes, that is what is going on.
After reading each of these, I finally understand how it works:
http://www.vladan.fr/starwind-virtual-san-product-review/
http://www.vladan.fr/starwind-virtual-san-deployment-methods-in-vmware-vsphere-environment/
https://www.starwindsoftware.com/technical_papers/HA-Storage-for-a-vSphere.pdfSo, in a nutshell, you do use RAID on the host as you normally would and even provision VMware datastores as you normally would. It's the VMDKs you present to the Starwind VM that get used as your virtual iSCSI target. And you can add in the cache size of your choice from the SSD datastores on your ESXi host.
So if I'm patching servers like I should, I'd have to patch the VMs running Starwind as well. Oh man would I hate to install a patch from MS that bombs my storage. I guess theoretically that isn't too different from installing some firmware on a physical SAN that has certain bugs in it. If one Starwind VM gets rebooted, you still have your replication partner presenting storage to the hosts and are ok.
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
I'm also assuming you are turning RAID off on each host so Starwind can provide RAIN for you (thus creating the storage pool).
No, you leave RAID on on the hosts and Starwind provides Network RAID. There is no RAIN here.
So you'd leave RAID on and then make a small local VMFS datastore for the Starwind VM to run on so that Starwind can use the rest of the unformatted storage on the host for its network RAID?
You just follow the Starwind install guide. But yes, that is what is going on.
After reading each of these, I finally understand how it works:
http://www.vladan.fr/starwind-virtual-san-product-review/
http://www.vladan.fr/starwind-virtual-san-deployment-methods-in-vmware-vsphere-environment/
https://www.starwindsoftware.com/technical_papers/HA-Storage-for-a-vSphere.pdfSo, in a nutshell, you do use RAID on the host as you normally would and even provision VMware datastores as you normally would. It's the VMDKs you present to the Starwind VM that get used as your virtual iSCSI target. And you can add in the cache size of your choice from the SSD datastores on your ESXi host.
So if I'm patching servers like I should, I'd have to patch the VMs running Starwind as well. Oh man would I hate to install a patch from MS that bombs my storage. I guess theoretically that isn't too different from installing some firmware on a physical SAN that has certain bugs in it. If one Starwind VM gets rebooted, you still have your replication partner presenting storage to the hosts and are ok.
Right. And Hyper-V alone has very tiny, solid patches. Nothing like patching the OS.
