Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions
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@Mike-Davis said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
The questions I have is what is your backup target and will AppAssure work with 3 local hosts and your target? You mentioned needing cache to hit your IOP target. Will the 3 hosts and direct attached make it? Years ago at the last VMUG conference I went to there were a ton of vendors that had caching cards for servers to help out with direct attached loads. With the money you get back from the SAN, that could be a wash.
The backup target will be the AppAssure appliance. It has internal storage of somewhere around 18 TB I believe. This will be replicated to another appliance in a datacenter offsite.
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@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
Any advice is much appreciated.
You only need two nodes, no need to change that. Tell Dell to take back the gear that they wrongfully sold to you and to provide you with the disks that you need for local storage and give back the difference in a check . Then get Starwind VSAN which only requires two nodes. You have no need for the third node, nor the SAN, nor the VMware VSAN cost. All of that is just "extra."
That's certainly an option. If I'm reading this correctly, Starwind has an option to run in-kernel on VMware - https://www.starwindsoftware.com/whitepapers/free-vs-paid.pdf. It looks like this would also allow caching to SSDs or to RAM within the host. So I guess you just choose the drives you want to be part of your storage and those you want to be used for caching and go from there? And since we'd be looking at the iSCSI HA, is your total usable storage only the storage that is in one of the servers?
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
Any advice is much appreciated.
You only need two nodes, no need to change that. Tell Dell to take back the gear that they wrongfully sold to you and to provide you with the disks that you need for local storage and give back the difference in a check . Then get Starwind VSAN which only requires two nodes. You have no need for the third node, nor the SAN, nor the VMware VSAN cost. All of that is just "extra."
That's certainly an option. If I'm reading this correctly, Starwind has an option to run in-kernel on VMware - https://www.starwindsoftware.com/whitepapers/free-vs-paid.pdf. It looks like this would also allow caching to SSDs or to RAM within the host. So I guess you just choose the drives you want to be part of your storage and those you want to be used for caching and go from there? And since we'd be looking at the iSCSI HA, is your total usable storage only the storage that is in one of the servers?
Paging @kooler on that one.
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
And since we'd be looking at the iSCSI HA, is your total usable storage only the storage that is in one of the servers?
That is necessary for HA to be possible. Whether this is a SAN, VMware VSAN, Starwind VSAN, NAS.... if you don't replicate it, it's not really HA. So yes, the data has to be on both hosts as there are only two, they have to be mirrored.
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With only 2 hosts that have 6 bays for drives, he's going to need direct attached storage. What does Dell offer for this?
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What storage is needed? This is the problem with buying 1U servers, the decision to be dependent on external storage was used to make sure that these don't meet the need either. Mike is right, tell Dell to take it ALL back and replace them with R730 instead. That will solve the issue.
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@Mike-Davis said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
With only 2 hosts that have 6 bays for drives, he's going to need direct attached storage. What does Dell offer for this?
Sorry - the hosts have 8 bays for drives, but we would fill 1-2 for each host with SSDs for caching (ideally).
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@Mike-Davis said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
With only 2 hosts that have 6 bays for drives, he's going to need direct attached storage. What does Dell offer for this?
Sorry - the hosts have 8 bays for drives, but we would fill 1-2 for each host with SSDs for caching (ideally).
Would 2 + 6 be enough for your workload? Doesn't seem likely.
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I know there's pressure from above to get something in place quickly because the gear has been sitting for a bit since it was ordered (short on man power before I came here in December). I believe Dell wants to replace hardware with hardware (EMC Unity, Compellent, etc.) so they can stick it to us on maintenance costs of the SAN over time and then try to sell us another one someday. With them taking the PowerVault back and us going with some some type of VSAN solution (Starwind or other), I don't think their margins are as high over time.
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
I know there's pressure from above to get something in place quickly because the gear has been sitting for a bit since it was ordered (short on man power before I came here in December). I believe Dell wants to replace hardware with hardware (EMC Unity, Compellent, etc.) so they can stick it to us on maintenance costs of the SAN over time and then try to sell us another one someday. With them taking the PowerVault back and us going with some some type of VSAN solution (Starwind or other), I don't think their margins are as high over time.
Yeah, not even close. You could always just cancel the whole deal and move to another vendor, too. If Dell gives you any pressure, send it all back. The sale was in bad faith, you shouldn't be responsible for "fixing it."
They should be happy that you are willing to work with them at all at this point. They should be bending over backwards to not lose a customer.
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@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
I know there's pressure from above to get something in place quickly because the gear has been sitting for a bit since it was ordered (short on man power before I came here in December). I believe Dell wants to replace hardware with hardware (EMC Unity, Compellent, etc.) so they can stick it to us on maintenance costs of the SAN over time and then try to sell us another one someday. With them taking the PowerVault back and us going with some some type of VSAN solution (Starwind or other), I don't think their margins are as high over time.
Yeah, not even close. You could always just cancel the whole deal and move to another vendor, too. If Dell gives you any pressure, send it all back. The sale was in bad faith, you shouldn't be responsible for "fixing it."
They should be happy that you are willing to work with them at all at this point. They should be bending over backwards to not lose a customer.
They have not pressured us at all (quite the other way around, actually). From what I have heard the account team say (even after not having been on all the calls), they seem to truly want to do what it takes to make things right and retain a happy customer at the end of the day. But I did mention to the boss that I found it extremely interesting they never offered a VSAN type solution even as an option when looking at "alternatives."
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@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@NetworkNerd said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
I know there's pressure from above to get something in place quickly because the gear has been sitting for a bit since it was ordered (short on man power before I came here in December). I believe Dell wants to replace hardware with hardware (EMC Unity, Compellent, etc.) so they can stick it to us on maintenance costs of the SAN over time and then try to sell us another one someday. With them taking the PowerVault back and us going with some some type of VSAN solution (Starwind or other), I don't think their margins are as high over time.
Yeah, not even close. You could always just cancel the whole deal and move to another vendor, too. If Dell gives you any pressure, send it all back. The sale was in bad faith, you shouldn't be responsible for "fixing it."
They should be happy that you are willing to work with them at all at this point. They should be bending over backwards to not lose a customer.
They have not pressured us at all (quite the other way around, actually). From what I have heard the account team say (even after not having been on all the calls), they seem to truly want to do what it takes to make things right and retain a happy customer at the end of the day. But I did mention to the boss that I found it extremely interesting they never offered a VSAN type solution even as an option when looking at "alternatives."
Well, likely they don't offer it because they don't make it. Even fixing a sale you don't expect someone to switch to a competitors product. Now, technically, VMware VSAN is part of Dell so it is their solution to sell. But they are a separate operating company and the Dell team probably doesn't see it as a single entity.
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@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
Well, likely they don't offer it because they don't make it. Even fixing a sale you don't expect someone to switch to a competitors product. Now, technically, VMware VSAN is part of Dell so it is their solution to sell. But they are a separate operating company and the Dell team probably doesn't see it as a single entity.
They were the ones who suggested Infinio, and I don't even think they sell it. But I see what you mean.
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@scottalanmiller If your doing a 3 node vSAN for a low cost deployment you should go single socket and get more core's per proc. Leaves you room to scale later and costs the vSAN cost in half.
Also that cost study on vSAN is funky. The costs don't make sense to me based on quotes I've seen (I suspect no one actually was trying to get a discounted quote, and put 5 years or support or something on it). It also uses SATA drives (not certified for vSAN) for capacity instead of NL-SAS drives, and looks to be using a non-certified cache tier drive.
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@scottalanmiller They have a different compensation plan (although it changed as we are now in FY18 for Dell's calendar year) so you'll see different behaviors in their sales force from different people.
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@John-Nicholson said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
Also that cost study on vSAN is funky. The costs don't make sense to me based on quotes I've seen (I suspect no one actually was trying to get a discounted quote, and put 5 years or support or something on it). It also uses SATA drives (not certified for vSAN) for capacity instead of NL-SAS drives, and looks to be using a non-certified cache tier drive.
Listed MSRP in both cases. So neither side uses a discount.
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@John-Nicholson said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller If your doing a 3 node vSAN for a low cost deployment you should go single socket and get more core's per proc. Leaves you room to scale later and costs the vSAN cost in half.
They are likely stuck here with whatever was already bought. But good info for a greenfield deployment. Or if they manage to return these for three R730 for example.
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Honestly, I would return EVERYTHING.
Then I would sit down and design it the right way, using a few R730xd servers, with appropriate specs to accommodate your needs. With that and Starwind vSAN, you can get your HA.
Do you actually need HA? Does the company feel spending the money for real HA is a business requirement and makes financial sense?
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Tim has a point. At some point you need to start over. This is the core of the business, right? Does anyone really want the core of the business to be a huge compromise based on "fixing" layer after layer of bad decisions before? The design wasn't the best, the products weren't right, the products that are okay were based on products that were not, etc. Start over, do it right the whole way. Go to management, explain that this isn't a place where you rush or compromise - this has to work.
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@scottalanmiller said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@John-Nicholson said in Vendor Mistake - VMware Infrastructure Decisions:
@scottalanmiller If your doing a 3 node vSAN for a low cost deployment you should go single socket and get more core's per proc. Leaves you room to scale later and costs the vSAN cost in half.
They are likely stuck here with whatever was already bought. But good info for a greenfield deployment. Or if they manage to return these for three R730 for example.
I'm not entirely certain we'll be stuck with what we bought. My boss and I were on a conference call with folks from Dell yesterday afternoon. They were talking about different options in SAN devices that would meet our requirements (whether it was Compellent, EMC, etc.), but the biggest issue was that these options were so expensive. Again, not one of them mentioned the potential for a VSAN deployment, so we brought it up (using either VMware VSAN or Starwind). The Dell team has to go back and redesign a quote for gear that would better support a VSAN deployment. In their words, they would likely have to return the servers and the PowerVault we have right now (not sure about the other gear - PowerConnect switches, TrippLite devices, APC PDUs, AppAssure appliance, and ip KVM switch).
I'll be curious to see what comes back when they re-quote.
